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  #101  
Old 9 October 2018, 15:47
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I am going to make Poly’s head explode.

T is 577.

I do not understand either. Where are our Physicians and PA’s?
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  #102  
Old 10 October 2018, 10:34
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I am going to make Poly痴 head explode.

T is 577.

I do not understand either. Where are our Physicians and PA痴?
If you mean how did it go from 300 to 577 10 years later - not that difficult to understand, based on environmental factors:

The diurnal cycle of T has it highest in the AM and dropping as the day goes on. If you had your 2009 blood draw in the afternoon, it would be lower - the swing can be a couple hundred points. Diet and environmental stress lowers it as well - if you were on AD, running your ass off every day, drinking, sleeping less, with poor diet (especially calorically) - they all lower testosterone.

577 won't get you treated by any mainstream Doc. Ideally SHBG and Free T would have been pulled as well.

But if you feel great, have a good sex-drive, sleep well, are gaining strength/size from training and can lose fat when you try - 577 is fine - especially if older.
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  #103  
Old 14 October 2018, 04:51
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Poly -- a question. I've been following this thread closely, since I'm always looking to improve my performance, by diet, workout regime, protein powder/creatine, etc. I'd never before SOCNET had any exposure to what T-levels might be according to age. I'm now working long term in Mexico, but by a weird situation, have access to comprehensive 1st world facilities -- so I recently renewed my health physical, but this time I included all of the tests that you recommended on this thread. I have those results -- looks like I can make some basic assumptions given my age, but I'd much rather get a solid US analysis based on solid testing here (at a ridiculously reduced cost). Any advice, specifically as to a referral to a solid MD that would take vetted lab results from another country, and then give a diagnosis? Just want a good expert in the field to advise on the next step.
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  #104  
Old 14 October 2018, 07:23
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Any advice, specifically as to a referral to a solid MD that would take vetted lab results from another country, and then give a diagnosis? Just want a good expert in the field to advise on the next step.
I have no idea about any doctors that would (or would not) take your non-USA test - hell, doctors don't even have to take your US test and insist *they* issue the lab order. Bring what you have now and see, maybe ask over the phone. discountedlabs.com has the TRT panels for about $200 - unless you live in New England or HI (and can't drive to a surrounding state) you can get your own Labcorp workup done through them.
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  #105  
Old 16 October 2018, 20:53
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Poly, from discountedlabsdotcom:

Can you recommend the right tests?

I know I am putting you out, but your are the SME and I appreciate your help.
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  #106  
Old 17 October 2018, 08:45
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Depends on if you're trying to get insurance to pay, or going out of pocket (and this really just depends on if you are trying to pinch every penny - the Pre-TRT is always recommended when starting, so you'll have a baseline PSA, etc...):

The Pre-TRT Panel will be what insurance wants.


The TRT-Followup Panel has the minimum stuff to effectively treat.

(I'm on a foreign VPN server right now, so can't get to each exact URL, just search ---> discountedlabs.com pre-trt in Google, or go to the main page and look in the Male Hormonal Health sections).

I would add DHEA-S to any test that doesn't have it - it's a one time thing just to see if you should supplement.
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  #107  
Old 24 October 2018, 00:06
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What are Bioidentical Hormones?
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  #108  
Old 24 October 2018, 09:45
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What are Bioidentical Hormones?
Marketing - at least with Testosterone. For women, Estrogen used to be made from Horse Urine, now it's synthetic and I guess they call it Bio-identical. All Testosterone is synthetic and attached to an esther to prolong its release. "Bio-identical" Testosterone is also synthetic, just with no esther, and is in Cream or Gel form (and Pellets too, I think) and has to be applied daily or in the case of Pellets implanted.

Just use Testosterone Cypionate injections. 10ml is $40 out of pocket, and it's the tried and true (and used in the studies) medication. You will pay out the a$$ for any other form of Testosterone. Applying Gels or Creams is a royal PITA/can get transferred to women and kids - and adjusting the dosage with Pellets is even more a PITA.

Edit: There is a ton of profit for everyone involved (except you) when they try to put you on Cream/Gel/Pellet.
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  #109  
Old 25 October 2018, 06:14
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Marketing - at least with Testosterone. For women, Estrogen used to be made from Horse Urine, now it's synthetic and I guess they call it Bio-identical. All Testosterone is synthetic and attached to an esther to prolong its release. "Bio-identical" Testosterone is also synthetic, just with no esther, and is in Cream or Gel form (and Pellets too, I think) and has to be applied daily or in the case of Pellets implanted.

Just use Testosterone Cypionate injections. 10ml is $40 out of pocket, and it's the tried and true (and used in the studies) medication. You will pay out the a$$ for any other form of Testosterone. Applying Gels or Creams is a royal PITA/can get transferred to women and kids - and adjusting the dosage with Pellets is even more a PITA.

Edit: There is a ton of profit for everyone involved (except you) when they try to put you on Cream/Gel/Pellet.

Estradiol is also available in a patch, which is pretty simple and easy to use.
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  #110  
Old 25 October 2018, 09:51
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Estradiol is also available in a patch, which is pretty simple and easy to use.
I know very little about the female side, I know there are a ton of options. For men, inject if at all possible - for example, Androgel 10% costs like $400/month (check GoodRx for your zip code). Each application contains 100mg of Testosterone, but only 10mg makes it into circulation (ie. 10%). It's a monumental overpay for under delivery IMO.

Compare that with generic Watson Testosterone Cypionate at $40 for 10ml, which can last 4 months depending on weekly dosage - definitely 3 months for sure.

The only positive that can be said of transdermal creams or gels, is that it mimics a young man's Testosterone production perfectly - about 10mg/day. But you'll pay, and I see no advantage. Also, I've used transdermal "other" products that required daily application - it will get so old, so fast - trust me.

But yeah, the patch for women seems convenient.
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  #111  
Old 26 October 2018, 14:26
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Exclamation

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  #112  
Old 27 October 2018, 00:33
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Last edited by Doctor_Doom; 27 October 2018 at 00:40. Reason: train of thought derailed
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  #113  
Old 27 October 2018, 07:51
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Poly- could you describe your test cyp script a little more? Does Dr Crisler give you the script, then you can get it filled anywhere? Only $40/10ml? I'm with Defy Medicall right now, and the wife is ragging on me about the cost, maybe going with Dr Crisper would be cost effective. He used to be affiliated with Defy. I feel very good on my protocol, similar to yours at 90mg 2X weekly, plus 500 units HCG on the same days.
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  #114  
Old 27 October 2018, 11:14
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Poly- could you describe your test cyp script a little more? Does Dr Crisler give you the script, then you can get it filled anywhere? Only $40/10ml? I'm with Defy Medicall right now, and the wife is ragging on me about the cost, maybe going with Dr Crisper would be cost effective. He used to be affiliated with Defy. I feel very good on my protocol, similar to yours at 90mg 2X weekly, plus 500 units HCG on the same days.
Dr. J will either call/fax/"computer" an Rx to your local Walgreens (cheapest place for Watson Testosterone, but check GoodRx for your area) - OR you can order from the Compounding Pharmacy he uses, right from his website.

He charges $20 to send a script to an outside pharmacy OR the Testosterone from Empower Pharmacy is something like $70 - so it's almost a wash.

Since I get the hCG from his compounder, I go ahead and also get the slightly more expensive Test from them too. Then I pay him the $20 to call in an Rx for Anastrozole for a year to Kroger Pharmacy (cheapest at $6 for 16 tablets/4 months worth)

If it wasn't for the hCG, the absolute cheapest way is to have him send Rx's to Walgreens and Kroger - but with the hCG, best way is to get everything from him except the Arimidex. Of course, you have to become his patient - which is $595 for the initial consult.
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  #115  
Old 28 October 2018, 17:35
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Poly, I ordered from LE. Did the Premier, damn what nice rewards. Ordered the most I could of each. In bulk is the best way to go.

Thank you.
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  #116  
Old 29 October 2018, 09:33
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Poly, I ordered from LE. Did the Premier, damn what nice rewards. Ordered the most I could of each. In bulk is the best way to go.

Thank you.
Yeah, cool. DHEA and Pregnenolone are OTC supplements, so don't expect miracles, but they *do* get age-related declining levels back to normal - verified by DHEA-S(ulfate) blood work I've done. Pregnenolone requires Gas Chromatography to measure - so that one test is like $200 - no bueno for me. But all studies on oral Preg show it's bio-available and increases Allopreg levels reliably. Preg is the "Master" hormone.
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  #117  
Old 29 October 2018, 21:43
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Yeah, cool. DHEA and Pregnenolone are OTC supplements, so don't expect miracles, but they *do* get age-related declining levels back to normal - verified by DHEA-S(ulfate) blood work I've done. Pregnenolone requires Gas Chromatography to measure - so that one test is like $200 - no bueno for me. But all studies on oral Preg show it's bio-available and increases Allopreg levels reliably. Preg is the "Master" hormone.

My Doc has me on Pregnenolone, DHEA, Glutathione and NAC
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  #118  
Old 30 October 2018, 07:52
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Dr. J will either call/fax/"computer" an Rx to your local Walgreens (cheapest place for Watson Testosterone, but check GoodRx for your area) - OR you can order from the Compounding Pharmacy he uses, right from his website.

He charges $20 to send a script to an outside pharmacy OR the Testosterone from Empower Pharmacy is something like $70 - so it's almost a wash.

Since I get the hCG from his compounder, I go ahead and also get the slightly more expensive Test from them too. Then I pay him the $20 to call in an Rx for Anastrozole for a year to Kroger Pharmacy (cheapest at $6 for 16 tablets/4 months worth)

If it wasn't for the hCG, the absolute cheapest way is to have him send Rx's to Walgreens and Kroger - but with the hCG, best way is to get everything from him except the Arimidex. Of course, you have to become his patient - which is $595 for the initial consult.
Thanks for the gouge. I will have to crunch some numbers to see how much my savings would be if I were to switch. So far I am happy with the results of my TRT, and spending the money seems worthwhile to me. Have you tried to get insurance reimbursement for your labs? I'm going to give it a try, but don't expect BCBS will be eager to pay money for something of this nature. Lastly, you mentioned earlier about donating blood. Have you had to do that? My 'crit is climbing some, & I would like to get it taken care of. I went to a mobile blood drive & was disqualified because I was stationed in Italy in the mid-nineties, mad cow was going around then. My only option is a therapeutic phlebotomy, I can't find any Red Cross place that will do it, or even knows what it is. So far, the only places I have found that will do it, are cancer infusion centers, and you can't just roll in on any given day and have it done.
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  #119  
Old 30 October 2018, 10:12
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My Doc has me on Pregnenolone, DHEA, Glutathione and NAC
New study just came on women and DHEA - positive all across the board. I read so many I forget where I saw it - but it was Oct 2018 - maybe check PubMed.
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  #120  
Old 30 October 2018, 10:25
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Thanks for the gouge. I will have to crunch some numbers to see how much my savings would be if I were to switch. So far I am happy with the results of my TRT, and spending the money seems worthwhile to me. Have you tried to get insurance reimbursement for your labs? I'm going to give it a try, but don't expect BCBS will be eager to pay money for something of this nature. Lastly, you mentioned earlier about donating blood. Have you had to do that? My 'crit is climbing some, & I would like to get it taken care of. I went to a mobile blood drive & was disqualified because I was stationed in Italy in the mid-nineties, mad cow was going around then. My only option is a therapeutic phlebotomy, I can't find any Red Cross place that will do it, or even knows what it is. So far, the only places I have found that will do it, are cancer infusion centers, and you can't just roll in on any given day and have it done.
I refill every 4 months and it's like $280 for everything but the Anastrozole - Which is $6 from Kroger plus the $20 call in fee. I get DHEA and Pregnenolone from Life Extension and it's cheap using their VIP program and buying 4-bottle packages.

Bi-annual Doc consults are $75 + bloodwork. Discounted Labs 'TRT Followup' panel is fine with Dr. J and those are under like $190. So add up what Defy Medical is charging per year, total and see.

I'm not interested in dealing with insurance at all - so don't care about the Labs cost. I never donated blood - RBC/Hemoglobin/Hematocrit are all in range. Also, millions of people the world over living at high elevations are slightly elevated - Colorado isn't barren because everyone strokes out - but go by what your doctor says. I know nothing about the process of Red Cross vs Phlebotomy but they have to train Phlebotomists somewhere - see if you can find a school that needs volunteers?

Why won't Red Cross take you, today?
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