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  #21  
Old 9 October 2018, 14:31
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Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
I wouldn't hold my breath waiting to see if they change to 6.8.

How much more capability would it bring and at what price point? Maybe someone sees the ROI, but I'm scratching my head.
IIRC it didn't perform that much better than 5.56 when tested downrange?

Mainstream gun media thinks it's the cat's ass lol.
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  #22  
Old 9 October 2018, 15:23
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IIRC it didn't perform that much better than 5.56 when tested downrange?

Mainstream gun media thinks it's the cat's ass lol.
Back when I used to follow that sort of thing, my understanding was that it performed significantly better in every respect, but external and terminal in particular.
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  #23  
Old 12 October 2018, 07:19
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Between the two branches I served in, the Navy had a better markmanship program. In the NMCB we shot the USMC way. I went in the Guard and found the markmanship training lacking. Same with being mobilized for OIF best shooters in my unit were all former USMC or Navy.
Training not new gear IMHO.
No idea how Big Green is now, or the 75th, but I too learned more about rifle shooting from a bunch of former Marines when working for a company, then the Army, including the 75th, in the 80's. And Army BRM was the same in 1999 when I went back in too...
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  #24  
Old 12 October 2018, 13:58
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No idea how Big Green is now, or the 75th, but I too learned more about rifle shooting from a bunch of former Marines when working for a company, then the Army, including the 75th, in the 80's. And Army BRM was the same in 1999 when I went back in too...
My step-dad said BRM went down the tubes when train- fire came out back in the day.
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  #25  
Old 12 October 2018, 15:11
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^^^ This.

25 meter zero followed by field fire at E & F type silhouettes rather than bullseye zero and training on the Known Distance (KD) range was the death of actual marksmanship training.
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  #26  
Old 15 October 2018, 09:21
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^^^ This.

25 meter zero followed by field fire at E & F type silhouettes rather than bullseye zero and training on the Known Distance (KD) range was the death of actual marksmanship training.
I agree, it should be a combination of both IMO. I have always agreed with the every Marine is a rifleman first mentality. Big Green needs to start doing that.
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  #27  
Old 15 October 2018, 13:37
Attila175 Attila175 is offline
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I went through both Army basic and USMC boot camp. The Army taught me to shoot. The Marine Corps taught me to hit the target. In the 80s, parts of 1st Batt got to go to Parris Island for marksmanship instruction and qualification (I know C Co went in 87 and think they went in 85 or 86 as well). There were Rangers wearing the USMC expert badge in place of the Army badge.

From day one in the Marine Corps, they are doing things that are done just to prepare you for the rifle range. I felt more confident firing at the 500 yard line in the Corps than shooting at the 300 yard pop-up in the Army.
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  #28  
Old 15 October 2018, 18:58
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I wonder if the U.S. Army is planning on fighting by itself as the USMC and NATO won't have 6.8mm anytime soon.

I wonder if the 6.8mm wears out barrels quicker like I hear the 6mm and 6.5mm do?

I wonder how much the U.S. Army could improve its lethality if it spent all of this 6.8mm money on getting people to the range more? (A miss with a 6.8mm is still a miss.)

What happens when there is a fight so bad the U.S. front lines get pushed back and the "close combat troops" find their ammo isn't compatible with the rest of the U.S. Army?

This is the 1980s "Beretta 9mm vs Soviet Body Armor" and the Blackhawk Down "Green tip don't drop Skinnies" arguments all over again.

I eagerly await the research that has been done before the money is spent.

-Stan
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  #29  
Old 15 October 2018, 20:33
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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It always makes me suspicious when organizations think "upgrade" means changing the gear instead of training the people.
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  #30  
Old 16 October 2018, 00:08
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Originally Posted by 8654maine View Post
It always makes me suspicious when organizations think "upgrade" means changing the gear instead of training the people.
Exactly. Issues with distance are more due to soldiers not being trained with enough ammo to know how to shoot far than the gun or the round being incapable.
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  #31  
Old 16 October 2018, 00:54
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Originally Posted by Stanley_White View Post
I wonder if the 6.8mm wears out barrels quicker like I hear the 6mm and 6.5mm do?
And would that be any quicker than SOCCOM barrel profile M4A1's that were only getting 5K-7K rounds of green tip down the pipe before needing replacement for throat wear.....
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  #32  
Old 16 October 2018, 01:25
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
Back when I used to follow that sort of thing, my understanding was that it performed significantly better in every respect, but external and terminal in particular.
As far as terminal performance of M855, although I worked in Iraq as a contractor for 4 years, I never shot anyone, never even saw anyone shot with green tip (yet) therefor I am dependent on 1st hand knowledge from those who have "BTDT" for guidance. Regarding green tip I get mine from former Delta Sgt. Maj. Kyle Lamb via his book, "Green Eyes and Black Rifles", pages 190-192. He advises those who feel they have had issues to work on accuracy. Maybe not the answer people want but there it is.

Regarding alternatives, I have the experiences of a friend of mine to go on, he did 10 years in the Marines with multiple tours in Iraq and is now a State Police SWAT team commander, and is also an enthusiastic hunter/proponent of the .300 supersonic and has used that round on deer and of course M855 on bad guys. He loves .300 and is vocal about it but I don't think we're talking about FMJ .300 though, I'll have to remember to ask.
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  #33  
Old 16 October 2018, 09:42
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Originally Posted by Attila175 View Post
I went through both Army basic and USMC boot camp. The Army taught me to shoot. The Marine Corps taught me to hit the target. In the 80s, parts of 1st Batt got to go to Parris Island for marksmanship instruction and qualification (I know C Co went in 87 and think they went in 85 or 86 as well). There were Rangers wearing the USMC expert badge in place of the Army badge.

From day one in the Marine Corps, they are doing things that are done just to prepare you for the rifle range. I felt more confident firing at the 500 yard line in the Corps than shooting at the 300 yard pop-up in the Army.
B Co went in 79

A co went in 84

I was there for both of those. We had a 'Gunner' (USMC CWO) on the range that was a shooting machine- one of the NCOs in the company was having some issues on the 200 yard line when the Gunner walks up and asks what his problem was. The Ranger NCO began complaining about the weapon, whereupon the Gunner takes the weapon, inserts a 10 round mag, tell the tower to raise the NCO's target and proceeds to put 10 in the "X" ring, off hand.

He handed the weapon back to the NCO and told him it was operator head space and timing...
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  #34  
Old 16 October 2018, 09:47
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When I was the CALL LNO for Fort Campbell, we did interviews with every unit returning from combat, inviting over 15 outside agencies to conduct interviews. One of these sessions was for the M855A1 EPR (Enhanced Performance Round); according to the feedback, the Soldiers that used the round found it much more effective than the standard green tip. They reported a higher incidence of '1 round knock down and stay down as opposed to the green tip ammo.
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  #35  
Old 16 October 2018, 10:57
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Originally Posted by Stanley_White View Post
I wonder how much the U.S. Army could improve its lethality if it spent all of this 6.8mm money on getting people to the range more? (A miss with a 6.8mm is still a miss.)
Who makes mint with a shift to 6.8mm?
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  #36  
Old 16 October 2018, 12:45
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Originally Posted by RGR.Montcalm View Post
When I was the CALL LNO for Fort Campbell, we did interviews with every unit returning from combat, inviting over 15 outside agencies to conduct interviews. One of these sessions was for the M855A1 EPR (Enhanced Performance Round); according to the feedback, the Soldiers that used the round found it much more effective than the standard green tip. They reported a higher incidence of '1 round knock down and stay down as opposed to the green tip ammo.
Did anyone ever complain about lack of consistency in accuracy? The EPR rounds I've had with the guard there would be a round every once in awhile that seemed to just go off in space almost.
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  #37  
Old 16 October 2018, 14:45
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Originally Posted by Stanley_White View Post
I eagerly await the research that has been done before the money is spent.

-Stan

6.8 SPC has been being looked at for a long time. I spent many hours discussing it with Steve Holland from 5th Group back in the 2003-2004 timeframe when I was actually into long gun stuff. Here is a decent article discussing the history of Steve's work with AMU and the capability of the round.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.8-mm-spc-cartridge-history-development-hornady-stag-arms-carbine/?p=1
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  #38  
Old 16 October 2018, 14:49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobofthedesert View Post
Regarding green tip I get mine from former Delta Sgt. Maj. Kyle Lamb via his book, "Green Eyes and Black Rifles", pages 190-192. He advises those who feel they have had issues to work on accuracy. Maybe not the answer people want but there it is.

I get that. But I also think Kyle would tell you that is his personal opinion. I have killed deer shooting them in the ear with .22LR too. That doesn't make it a great choice for deer hunting for most people.
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  #39  
Old 16 October 2018, 18:53
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6.8

It could be a fantastic cartridge; though, it will all depend on what bullet design that is approved for issue.

Frankly, DOD "could" save a shit ton of money by replicating what they adopted w/the 9mm cartridge. A "training" bullet design & a "combat" bullet design, w/similar external ballistics.


What should the "combat" bullet design be? My vote would go w/the "A1" design

Good shooting
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  #40  
Old 16 October 2018, 19:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
6.8 SPC has been being looked at for a long time. I spent many hours discussing it with Steve Holland from 5th Group back in the 2003-2004 timeframe when I was actually into long gun stuff. Here is a decent article discussing the history of Steve's work with AMU and the capability of the round.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.8-mm-spc-cartridge-history-development-hornady-stag-arms-carbine/?p=1
In a SOF context I am confident it has been well researched.

For mass issue, I submit there are other issues that SOF likely did not have to address in their research.

Also, Dear U.S. Army, not everybody can be SOF, even if you carry a 6.8mm, just like with berets.

-Stan
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