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  #41  
Old 16 October 2018, 22:40
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Wasnt there just as much excitement, argument, hope and discussion about the 6.5 Grendel at one point? That wasnt the magical pew pellet either.

A switch would be pretty good for the gun industry though. Just think of all the new rifles and mags that would have to be made for Gov't contracts, plus the same for the commercial market that would soon follow suit. I mean, why not go ahead and build a 6.8 spc pistol and get ahead of this thing?
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  #42  
Old 16 October 2018, 22:53
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
I get that. But I also think Kyle would tell you that is his personal opinion.
You must know him personally or something, he says exactly that.

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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
I have killed deer shooting them in the ear with .22LR too. That doesn't make it a great choice for deer hunting for most people.
Concur. My State Police buddy is very clear that .300 supersonic IHO is a vast improvement on green tip, and he's shot enough mammals of roughly equivalent body weight with both to know.

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Originally Posted by RGR.Montcalm View Post
When I was the CALL LNO for Fort Campbell, we did interviews with every unit returning from combat, inviting over 15 outside agencies to conduct interviews. One of these sessions was for the M855A1 EPR (Enhanced Performance Round); according to the feedback, the Soldiers that used the round found it much more effective than the standard green tip. They reported a higher incidence of '1 round knock down and stay down as opposed to the green tip ammo.
"News we can use". Thanks for that. In light of this and all the $$ poured into that upgrade, if I had to bet I'd guess 6.8 is never going to happen. .300 BO with it's subsonic option makes more sense anyway IMHO. Same bolt head/mags, vs. needing non-standard of those for 6.8mm.
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  #43  
Old 17 October 2018, 04:31
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I highly doubt 6.8mm SPC is what they're talking about, except as a performance benchmark.

The previous generation of this program was called LSAT, and there's tons of online info about it.

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...ms/spiegel.pdf

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...33_Shipley.pdf

My supposition is that they're trying to get/approach 7.62x51 performance within the 5.56 weapon envelope. I'm not sure the shorter 115gn class 6.8 SPC profile bullets are the method to that, but that may not be the supplied material.

This is a comprehensively new program, legacy materials don't matter. Shouldn't matter, some old fossil will doubtlessly fuck this up by demanding it be compatible with a stockpile of M14 bolts found in a warehouse in Alabama or some shit. Limiting the design of the cartridge to something that fits in 5.56 STANAG magazines or bolt heads or whatever doesn't matter.

Barrel life is directly correlated between powder capacity and bore diameter, all else being equal. Also, heavy bullets cause more wear than light bullets, at the same maximum pressure levels. S/F....Ken M
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  #44  
Old 17 October 2018, 07:49
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Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post

I highly doubt 6.8mm SPC is what they're talking about, except as a performance benchmark.
Probably right. I have been out of the LR game for a long time. When I read 6.8 that's just where my brain went due to my history.
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  #45  
Old 17 October 2018, 09:14
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I might be wrong, I don''t have any privileged info on this. I like the 6.8SPC, but the time when it would have made sense has passed. Mk 262 and more importantly Mk 318 and M855A1 have made 5.56 into an acceptable caliber from terminal performance standpoint, which was always where M855 was wildly random. This is going to sound crazy, but I'm not even that excited about occasional random flyers with M855A1. It's ball ammo, it still has a 4MOA or more lot acceptance standard. If you need match ammo for SPR/DMR work, issue Mk 262 or Mk 291. Even 12 MOA means you still hit the guy across the room CoM stone center, you need the ammo to frag and make the guy stop doing shit, at least long enough to shoot him in the face. M855 was prone to going icepick, that was the problem.

Anyways, reading up on the USMC long range plan for small arms, it seems the long range concept is a carbine/SAW replacement in 6.5mm 'ish(maybe this 6.8, IDK), duplicating the performance of the 7.62 to 1200m range, while weighing similar to the M249. The M240 (and in some cases the M2) is to be replaced with a 338 Lapua mag type weapon, giving approx 50cal range performance while allowing much more ammo to be carried, as well as actually being moved around without a vehicle or killing yourself.

I think this is a good plan, I've basically said as much since OIF2. The 50 caliber is too big for just being a bullet launcher. Even with SLAP it doesn't really kill anything you can't kill with 338 Lapua, and the 40x53HV grenade is just absolutely better for use on people. I really wish they'd make a 30mm gun about the size of the M2, as much as possible, and use the same projectile as the Apache. That could replace the Mk19/47 AND the M2 in direct fire. They tried and failed with the 25mm OCSW thing that blew itself up, but they went stupid fancy and too small. They always go too fancy and field nothing, probably because they have nothing at risk. When a project like this fails, if you took 5% of the staff out at random and hanged them, you wouldn't have projects that failed anymore. S/F....Ken M
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  #46  
Old 17 October 2018, 09:33
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I read a post on another forum from a guy that proclaims that he is involved in this process. His comments are summarized to say that the 6.8 projectile is the intended payload, but the 6.8 SPC II as we own and shoot it may very well not be the delivery system. The 6.8 projectile is nothing more than a .270. So here are my concerns.

As usual, we are planning to to fight the last war, again. Yes, we will likely all die seeing Americans still killing Arabs or Persians, requiring a longer one shot kill capability.

Next, we should be starting with the requirement from the Program Objectives Memorandum (POM) and build down from there to a weapon or ammunition that is needed to fulfill that requirement. Otherwise, its just another useless GlockTalk "Which is better" caliber discussion where people post to justify and seek relevance about their purchases and really no other knowledge, experience or requirement. There has to be an objective or standard to which to develop.
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