SOCNET

Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11 August 2019, 11:26
The Fat Guy's Avatar
The Fat Guy The Fat Guy is offline
Hard to Kill
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Getting off the lawn.
Posts: 14,865
The Science Behind Bullet Performance

I found this video while reviewing one of Leopard Prey's many blatherings about guns and ammo.

It provides the most basic and insightful pieces of information on hand gun caliber, velocity and energy vs rifle ammunition. It also puts some journeyman level science between the statement that you should use your handgun to fight your way back to your rifle.

The most enlightening piece of information for me was what happens to that excess energy when hit by a pistol round that has more energy that another pistol round.

There are lots of myths discussed in this video by guys that appear to have a great deal of knowledge that lies between the super physics and biology nerds and the users of the product.

Watch the video before commenting, the Internet does not need another Fuck you, my caliber vs Fuck you, your caliber.


Discuss
__________________
No one will take better care of us, than us: Suicide Hotline: 1-800-273-8255
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11 August 2019, 12:22
H60Gunner's Avatar
H60Gunner H60Gunner is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: North Idaho
Posts: 366
Good find TFG thanks! I like the science part of their research, and the fact that bigger caliber is not always better.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11 August 2019, 13:39
Gunk's Avatar
Gunk Gunk is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Montana
Posts: 631
Thanks. That was an informative video.
Lately, I've been thinking about bear defense and this kind of aligns with my thinking of 10mm vs 44mag. I can shoot the 10mm better and faster so that's what I've been carrying.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11 August 2019, 14:03
low&slow low&slow is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: National Capital Region
Posts: 135
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunk View Post
Thanks. That was an informative video.
Lately, I've been thinking about bear defense and this kind of aligns with my thinking of 10mm vs 44mag. I can shoot the 10mm better and faster so that's what I've been carrying.
I ditched my Vaquero for a G20 a couple years ago. I carry a 19X concealed and have both pistols triggers at the same index for my grip; not saying that 10mm is sufficient, but it is better than one shot from a still underpowered single action. I spend a good deal of time in the Bob and Bitterroots when possible
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 12 August 2019, 00:30
1RiserSlip's Avatar
1RiserSlip 1RiserSlip is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: Po Dunk, WV
Posts: 6,561
LP found this? Im impressed.

Good read and goes along with my thought process regarding SD and hunting.
__________________
I don't reckon I got no reason to kill nobody...

Karl Childers
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 12 August 2019, 07:47
Gsniper Gsniper is offline
Shakin' the bush Boss
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,192
I've been preaching this for years. It's not caliber, it's bullet placement.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 12 August 2019, 09:06
Mingo Kane's Avatar
Mingo Kane Mingo Kane is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gsniper View Post
I've been preaching this for years. It's not caliber, it's bullet placement.
B-I-N-G-O
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12 August 2019, 09:19
Steamin Steamin is online now
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Illinois -I/70
Posts: 422
Thanks TFG
I've tried to have this discussion with some older gents and they are as hard headed as granite (borderline dumb as shit)
Conversation typically goes:
"if it don't kick the shit out of ya, how's it gonna kill it?"
If you can't control it and you're flinching before you squeeze the trigger how are you going to be accurate?
The muzzle blast and fire will scare them into running or the "shell shock" being close is sufficient.

They have this mentality for home defense as well as hunting, which is why the coyotes and the buzzards as so healthy during and after deer season.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12 August 2019, 16:16
BigNickT BigNickT is offline
BTDT
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,837
That was very interesting. I'd like to see a ballistic gell comparison of ball ammo since i think that is a large reason for the development of some mythology that people still hang on to.

Going back to the olden days when hollow point offerings were pretty few, the comparisons of ball ammo were basically a ~120 gr 9mm projectile going ~1150 fps and a a 230 gr 45 ACP at ~ 850fps. It makes sense intuitively that a bullet of twice the size going three quarters of the speed will pack a little more punch. So the 45 was perceived as a better "stopper" than the 9mm. I've had a lot of conversations with people about how modern bullet technology makes many previously "wimpy" cartridges perfectly adequate. i.e. 20 years ago I wouldn't have recommended a 32 ACP to anyone. Today, with the caveat that ammunition selection is very important, I wouldn't push anyone to go bigger if .32 is what they are comfortable with.

I'd be leery of drawing parallels between terminal ballistics on ballistic gel as it pertains to performance on people, and performance on animals. Especially large animals that want to eat you. People are fragile. Yes, there are examples of people taking on multiple hits and continuing to fight. However, as a rule animals can absorb massive punishment relative to people. All the terminal ballistics in the world won't mean squat if it's simply not enough to stop or deter the critter in question. The howdah pistol was invented for good reason.
__________________
Don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining

Pleasing everybody? Impossible. Pissing everybody off? Piece of cake.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12 August 2019, 17:54
Stanley_White's Avatar
Stanley_White Stanley_White is online now
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Downtown
Posts: 1,963
I loves me some Lucky Gunner videos.

-Stan
__________________
-Stanley_White

"An increasingly lonely man, Patton felt that his was the voice of truth in a wilderness of indifference." -Carlo D'Este

"Two letters and two well placed rounds is the only difference between victim or victor." -Mingo Kane
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12 August 2019, 18:43
hawkdrver's Avatar
hawkdrver hawkdrver is offline
Red Headed Stepchild
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: AK
Posts: 3,148
Great video. Shared that one around today.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12 August 2019, 19:06
Gsniper Gsniper is offline
Shakin' the bush Boss
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 7,192
I used to teach my students there are three types of targeting. Electrical, plumbing or structural. Electrical, one shot to the Tbox, plumbing, multiple shots to the torso, or structural, multiple shots to the famous pelvic girdle (how's that for 20 year cross thread points). For electrical or structural bullet expansion doesn't make a lot of difference. For your plumbing/hydraulic it does.

Anyway, my summation of it all is keep shooting till he's on the ground, you can finish off the floppers at your leisure.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 13 August 2019, 04:49
leopardprey's Avatar
leopardprey leopardprey is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 13,946
The floppers?! Nice to see the PC police did not affect your teaching skills.

Mozambique, Mozambique, mozambique.
__________________
"Look Sharp, Act Sharp, Be Sharp - But don't cut yourself!"
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 13 August 2019, 20:16
GPC's Avatar
GPC GPC is offline
Freelancer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LFOD
Posts: 6,867
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
The floppers?! Nice to see the PC police did not affect your teaching skills.

Mozambique, Mozambique, mozambique.
I've gotten flak for using that instead of failure drill.

This video proves .45 GAP brings nothing to the table.
__________________
Steel Rain Brings The Pain!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 13 August 2019, 20:24
EchoFiveMike's Avatar
EchoFiveMike EchoFiveMike is offline
Make a desert and call it peace.
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: back home, IVO chicago
Posts: 8,745
I see the FBI is stealing other people's work(again) The approx 2200 fps threshold was noted by hunters, in Africa and elsewhere, during the transitional period from black powder to smokeless.

Good video, nicely packaged and easy to understand. S/F....Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith

“The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.”
- Robert E. Lee
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 13 August 2019, 22:21
Steve788 Steve788 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: GA
Posts: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
I see the FBI is stealing other people's work(again) The approx 2200 fps threshold was noted by hunters, in Africa and elsewhere, during the transitional period from black powder to smokeless.
That's interesting!

Federal, like every other ammo maker, is in business to
make money (by selling ammo). The big dog criteria for
defensive handgun ammo is still the "FBI protocol", and
IMO that's what all the major mfr's are tuning their
rounds for, and that's why they're on gelatin. The guy
with glasses said as much, about halfway thru.

The boutique, small production super pricey mfr's
(G2, RIP, Lehigh Penetrator, etc) rely on crazy
appearance and hype, without trying to tune for
gelatin.

I still think the historic research into street shootings
(effects on people vs effects on gelatin) are more
valid predictors/summations of performance. The
downside to actual shoot data is the inconsistency of
conditions; on the other paw, consistency of conditions
is the sole positive attribute of gelatin testing.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 14 August 2019, 07:39
Polypro's Avatar
Polypro Polypro is offline
BTDT
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: A Noisy Bar In Avalon
Posts: 13,982
I don't know the details of his daily routine, but a guy called DocGKR (Gary K Roberts I think) seems to be able to lay his hands on a lot of rounds that come out of humans - I just go by what he says. Federal 147gr HST for me. Printed this last year:
Attached Images
File Type: jpg GKR9mm.jpg (233.5 KB, 84 views)
__________________
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
On February 20, 2018, President Trump issued a memorandum instructing the Attorney General “to dedicate all available resources to… propose for notice and comment a rule banning all devices that turn legal weapons into machineguns.”

“I like taking the guns early, like in this crazy man’s case that just took place in Florida ... to go to court would have taken a long time”

“Take the guns first, go through due process second”

"Or, Mike, take the firearms first, and then go to court"
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 14 August 2019, 08:14
Steve788 Steve788 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2018
Location: GA
Posts: 102
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
I don't know the details of his daily routine
AFAIK, he's a dentist.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 14 August 2019, 08:33
The Fat Guy's Avatar
The Fat Guy The Fat Guy is offline
Hard to Kill
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Getting off the lawn.
Posts: 14,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigNickT View Post

I'd be leery of drawing parallels between terminal ballistics on ballistic gel as it pertains to performance on people, and performance on animals. Especially large animals that want to eat you. People are fragile. Yes, there are examples of people taking on multiple hits and continuing to fight. However, as a rule animals can absorb massive punishment relative to people. All the terminal ballistics in the world won't mean squat if it's simply not enough to stop or deter the critter in question. The howdah pistol was invented for good reason.

Good point......

That was one of the interesting parts, they stated that gel testing merely provided a standard method of evaluating projectile performance and not necessarily performance in the body of a living thing. Every bullet has a conscience. Nick a bone, hit a phone in a pocket etc it all changes. Gel testing provides a medium for scientific evaluation, which we as users have to translate to tactical efficiency.
__________________
No one will take better care of us, than us: Suicide Hotline: 1-800-273-8255
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 14 August 2019, 08:37
The Fat Guy's Avatar
The Fat Guy The Fat Guy is offline
Hard to Kill
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Getting off the lawn.
Posts: 14,865
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPC View Post
I've gotten flak for using that instead of failure drill.

This video proves .45 GAP brings nothing to the table.
You will surely go to hell for your blasphemy. The 45 GAP offers a much softer shooting platform for a 45 caliber projectile, which lends to your tacky plumbing analogy.
__________________
No one will take better care of us, than us: Suicide Hotline: 1-800-273-8255

Last edited by The Fat Guy; 15 August 2019 at 23:18.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:51.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
© SOCNET 1996-2018