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Old 6 July 2012, 08:53
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Lackland, Keesler compete for TACP, ALO school

"The Air Force is looking for a new home for its tactical air control party and air liaison officer training, and the service has narrowed the choices to two bases in the South."

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/20...hools-051612w/


I figured this would happen at some point. I guess real-estate at Hurby is getting tight. Wherever it is shifted to I'm sure the cadre will continue to turn out top notch 3-levels.....
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Old 6 July 2012, 10:51
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Originally Posted by swamppirate View Post
"The Air Force is looking for a new home for its tactical air control party and air liaison officer training, and the service has narrowed the choices to two bases in the South."

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/20...hools-051612w/


I figured this would happen at some point. I guess real-estate at Hurby is getting tight. Wherever it is shifted to I'm sure the cadre will continue to turn out top notch 3-levels.....
It also eliminates AETC from the base. Hurlburt is not a good place to have an AETC unit. I don't know what ranges are around Keesler, but think Lackland may win due to "cost effectivness".
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Old 6 July 2012, 21:22
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Jack-Assery. They could have easily carved out some of the Eglin range (it's only the largest AFB in the free world). Now they'll be surrounded by AETC dickheads seeking to pussify one of the last domains of Male-only careers in the USAF.
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Old 6 July 2012, 21:34
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Originally Posted by SATCOM View Post
Jack-Assery. They could have easily carved out some of the Eglin range (it's only the largest AFB in the free world). Now they'll be surrounded by AETC dickheads seeking to pussify one of the last domains of Male-only careers in the USAF.
I went through JFCC (then AGOS) at Hurby- it moved to Nellis in the late '90s - wonder why they don't just move the TACP school there as well?

Probably due to the excellent ranges there around San Antonio and Keesler
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Old 9 July 2012, 10:46
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I went through JFCC (then AGOS) at Hurby- it moved to Nellis in the late '90s - wonder why they don't just move the TACP school there as well?
Las Vegas + 20 year old TACP candidates= disaster

The dudes going through JTACQC can barely keep out of trouble!!
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Old 9 July 2012, 17:43
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Originally Posted by swamppirate View Post
Las Vegas + 20 year old TACP candidates= disaster

The dudes going through JTACQC can barely keep out of trouble!!
They can get in just as much trouble at Keesler, trust me. Just might take a little longer.

Last edited by hawkdrver; 9 July 2012 at 18:01.
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Old 10 June 2014, 15:25
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And Tejaz wins! Looks like Medina will be the home of future TACP students...

(Now AETC can finally SHOW TACPs how to properly train "AETC Students" in meeting minimal standards - Thusly producing Mimimally qualified TACPs).

It's always been the goal of AETC to "bestow" JTAC status on as many 98.6s as possible... regardless of skillset... Just use them as "Target Nominators" and let the TOCs and ASOC do the controls...

Good thing the WAR is Over...

But I still hold my trust in the TACP Cadre... They will weed out as many non hackers as humanly possible (after 3 failed tests).

Good Luck Guys,
HK
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Old 10 June 2014, 15:42
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And Tejaz wins! Looks like Medina will be the home of future TACP students...

(Now AETC can finally SHOW TACPs how to properly train "AETC Students" in meeting minimal standards - Thusly producing Mimimally qualified TACPs).

It's always been the goal of AETC to "bestow" JTAC status on as many 98.6s as possible... regardless of skillset... Just use them as "Target Nominators" and let the TOCs and ASOC do the controls...

Good thing the WAR is Over...

But I still hold my trust in the TACP Cadre... They will weed out as many non hackers as humanly possible (after 3 failed tests).

Good Luck Guys,
HK
Guys can quit earlier in the process saving money but not sending them back to Lackland.

That said, I know how you feel
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Old 13 June 2014, 09:46
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Ditto^^^^^^

AETC has no idea how to train BA...If the instructor were never in AETC they are going to get a huge dose of WTF?
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Old 17 June 2014, 10:42
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We always fell under AETC... Just reported to Keesler as a Geographically Separarated Unit... Being an AETC school on AFSOC had it's Ups and Downs, but from my perspective, AFSOC was always pretty good to us.

I'm not a fan of the relocation... if for no other reason than the great training area we are leaving south of Duke field... (good times)
HK
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  #11  
Old 17 June 2014, 14:10
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When hasn't the owning major command owning Keesler not been either the Air Training command and subsequently the Air Education and Training Command?

As far as the assertion of "It's always been the goal of AETC to "bestow" JTAC status on as many 98.6s as possible... regardless of skillset... Just use them as "Target Nominators" and let the TOCs and ASOC do the controls...", AETC not being a combatant command has very little say so in this. AETC's job is to produce a deployable 3-level for assignment to first duty assignment. JTAC is only required for award and retention of 7-level skill AFSC. It is the operational unit's and unit's owning or gained MAJCOM other than AETC's responsibility to provide JTAC training.

As far as the enlisted AFSC TACP doing JTAC, it was never seriously entertained until after 1984/5. The AFSC was basically radio operator maintenance and driver duty position within a capability known as the Tactical Air Control Party that supports the Army.

Effective 30 April 1977, AFSC 275X0 was established to perform ROMAD Duties exclusively. It's primary origins purpose at that time was oriented towards "operational field communications activities and field site readiness".

Quote:
AFM 39-1 (now AFECD), Oct 1977:

Assists in mission planning and application of tactical air resources in support of ground forces. Operates and maintains radio transceivers and associated equipment.
TACP initially qualified a handful of 7-level TACP as Enlisted Tactical Air Controllers in 1984/85 and this didn't actually get embraced until after 2000, primarily due to combat operations resulting from 9-11.

Quote:
AFECD, 30 April 2014:

TACTICAL AIR CONTROL PARTY (TACP)-(Changed 30 Apr 14, Effective 24 Jan 14).

1. Specialty Summary. Engages enemy forces utilizing advanced technologies and weapon systems to direct airstrikes in close proximity of friendly forces. Controls and executes operational air and space power. Operates in austere combat environments independent of an established airbase or its perimeter defenses. Employed as part of a joint, interagency or coalition force to support Combatant Commander objectives. Primarily assigned to U.S. Army Installations. Member of Battlefield Airman grouping. IAW AFPD 10-35, Battlefield Airmen. Related DoD Occupational Subgroup: 125000.

...

3.5.3. For award and retention of AFSC 1C471/91/00, certification as a JTAC according to AFI 13-112, Volume 1, Joint Terminal Attack Controller (JTAC) Training Program, and Volume 2, Joint Terminal Attack Controller (JTAC) Standardization/Evaluation Program.
The lack of or presence of mediocrity in standards is not an AETC causal, the finger for mediocrity in award of skill level training standards and retention of skill level competency, if it exists, actually points elsewhere.
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  #12  
Old 17 June 2014, 14:20
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Originally Posted by SATCOM View Post
Jack-Assery. They could have easily carved out some of the Eglin range (it's only the largest AFB in the free world). Now they'll be surrounded by AETC dickheads seeking to pussify one of the last domains of Male-only careers in the USAF.
Not really, there is a access to range real estate reason the PJ school relocated from Eglin AFB to Hill AFB and is currently located at Kirtland AFB.

Also the 23rd AF/MTT conducted MFF course at Eglin AFB during 1985. Getting an Eglin Range was an unreliable process and other range air space needs often forces us to relocate to Hunter Army Air Field and other civilian drop zone areas 50 miles or more from the Eglin ranges.

Last edited by johca; 17 June 2014 at 14:26.
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Old 18 June 2014, 08:09
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Also the 23rd AF/MTT conducted MFF course at Eglin AFB during 1985. Getting an Eglin Range was an unreliable process and other range air space needs often forces us to relocate to Hunter Army Air Field and other civilian drop zone areas 50 miles or more from the Eglin ranges.
You're right, it's always been a difficult dance getting altitude @ Eglin. That's because it's also a major weapons test center. The last time I did a HALO there above 13K required lots of coordination. There are full time GS-11/12 retired PJ/CCT that do nothing BUT range scheduling down there IOT ensure that training needs are met for the various students in attendance at the TACP schoolhouse and STTS on Hurby. There was (and is) plenty of room at Eglin, why do you think the entire 7th Special Forces Group just moved there from Ft Bragg? The 7th SFG built new ranges etc there (they are nice).

http://www.eglin.af.mil/units/7specialforcesgroup/
http://www.*********.com/article/200...ving-Eglin-AFB
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Old 18 June 2014, 12:39
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I'm aware the 7th SFG moved there, however ranges without specifics of size, location and hard scheduling (meaning no wiggle room to slide training use to accommodate all range users) does little to address all the variety of range access needed to put entry placement students through the required training to produce a 3-skill level. The 3-level is what the Air Force and Congress considers a combat deployable asset, except AFSOC for certain AFSCs that decided 5-skill level is needed to be combat deployable.

It is less fiscally and resource constraints difficult to keep trained and qualified personnel proficient in core skills, it is a bit more scheduling conflicting keeping a permanent course schedule on track with range access aligning with course training objectives.

The issue with Eglin ranges is more and more housing is saturating the areas around the perimeter of Eglin/Hurlburt/Duke Field Range real estate. Lots of noise complaints imposing more and more restrictions each year.

There is also major civilian air traffic corridors going above and around the ranges. I've not played on the Eglin Ranges as far as scheduling Range for use since 1986, so my recollection is somewhat old age can't remember impaired but certainly at 20,000 feet MSL and above you had significant commercial air traffic imposed difficulties. I'm not certain but in some areas of the ranges approach and departure routes imposed some lower altitude problem. This does not even address the small private pilot air traffic going into the smaller airports in various communities such as Crestview and the problem of these private pilots not giving due diligence to posted NOTAMs as they flew here and there.

I'm clueless of to the range need specifics as to what is needed to initially train and qualify a 3-level TACP and the more in need of range time JTAC. Directing close air support has technology changed considerably from my days when close air support was F-4, A-7 and subsequently A-10 flying below 10,000 feet and often 5,000 feet releasing dumb (not precision guided) bombs and strafing with guns. Also back in my day there was less concern about unintended/unnecessary collateral damage to noncombatants and non targeted property. Essentially one was in a active combat kill zone and anybody not you and with you was the enemy and a legitimate target. However I regress into a tangent off topic. Now CAS is B-1 bombers, UAVs, helicopters and I wouldn't be a bit surprised if KC-135s get configured with air to ground weapons racks so they can be combatant kill the enemy heroes too.

The only thing I do know that is certain is if TACP is successful in making JTAC qualification/certification a core 3-level requirement the 3-level course need for suitable and adequate ranges increases significantly.

The other complication is TACP in the joint service picture are not the only JTAC capability needing training. There is a Joint Terminal Attack Controller (JTAC) (Ground) MOA that was implemented in 2004 that integrates joint fire support (helicopter, artillery, mortars) that Air Force TACP didn't (to the best of my awareness) concern themselves with to the extent the USMC counterparts and other Army MOSs concerned themselves with prior to 2000. Regardless, training the competent JTAC and keeping the JTAC competent and proficient has extensive range requirements.

Last edited by johca; 18 June 2014 at 13:00. Reason: sp strafing wrong.
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Old 18 June 2014, 20:44
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You're right, it's always been a difficult dance getting altitude @ Eglin. That's because it's also a major weapons test center. The last time I did a HALO there above 13K required lots of coordination. There are full time GS-11/12 retired PJ/CCT that do nothing BUT range scheduling down there IOT ensure that training needs are met for the various students in attendance at the TACP schoolhouse and STTS on Hurby. There was (and is) plenty of room at Eglin, why do you think the entire 7th Special Forces Group just moved there from Ft Bragg? The 7th SFG built new ranges etc there (they are nice).

http://www.eglin.af.mil/units/7specialforcesgroup/
http://www.*********.com/article/200...ving-Eglin-AFB
I routinely jumped on Eglin from 98-2002.
Scheduling was always a bitch, and getting bumped by a weapons drop was not uncommon.

Add woodpeckers, close Rosey Roads (moving missions to Eglin) add 7th SFG and I can imagine it getting a little tighter. The navy has a bunch of satellite airfields scattered around also.

I don't think it's a stretch to think AFSOC/1st SOW wanted them gone also.

Question for those in the know, is Camp Bullis big enough for CAS missions?
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Old 19 June 2014, 09:23
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3 Level students don't get to control any LIVE missions during the Apprentice Course. We used to take them out to A-77 towards the end of training to let them observe some Gunship work (controlled by the Instructors or "Others"), but they never get to talk to a real aircraft, or do any real CAS missions.
HK
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Old 19 June 2014, 10:02
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Question for those in the know, is Camp Bullis big enough for CAS missions?
I've spent some time there and cant remember seeing CAS or CCA. It's on the approach for the airport with lots of heavies. Also, there has been a fight with the luxury housing developments to the east over lighting and noise. They do jump there quite often and it has a small airfield for C130 or less.
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Old 19 June 2014, 10:25
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I've spent some time there and cant remember seeing CAS or CCA. It's on the approach for the airport with lots of heavies. Also, there has been a fight with the luxury housing developments to the east over lighting and noise. They do jump there quite often and it has a small airfield for C130 or less.
Bottom line: They will probably bus everyone to Ft Hood for CAS work. At least the fighters won't have a long flight
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Old 19 June 2014, 14:07
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I'm temporally plugging in my mike to get out of lurker mode here...

When it's the CAS block of training for the F-16 students at Kelly, they usually head over to Yankee range. Its part of the McMullen Range near Kingsville. The entire complex is owned by NAS Kingsville but the 149th maintains a Det. there who manage Yankee range for the TXANG. The ASOS's from Hood and Houston typically go there to do controls with the IP's and student pilots.

Mike unplugged, radio Z'd, Lurking switch on...
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  #20  
Old 19 June 2014, 14:09
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Bottom line: They will probably bus everyone to Ft Hood for CAS work.
The more logical choice, presuming controlling any sort of CAS becomes a core 3-level requirement, would be send the apprentice course student TDY to the actual course at Nellis AFB as the final apprentice course block of training.
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