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  #81  
Old 9 June 2014, 08:00
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FYI, this series is now on Netflix if anyone hasn't watched. I found this yesterday and watched a few episodes with my daughter. Very humbling and is a great series to watch. I hope they do come out with another one.
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  #82  
Old 9 June 2014, 22:34
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I would like to mention that the CASEVAC mission was not our choice the SECDEF wanted to decrease recovery time of injured dramatically. The Pavelow is a resource at his disposal and it was deemed we would perform the mission along side PR. NatGeo did make it look like a life-flight mission and CASEVAC has created a generation of PJ's that are FOBITS and believe that our mission is just outside the rotor blade. In 10yrs of war we have gained skills but IMHO we have lost many basics that will take years to regain....
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  #83  
Old 10 June 2014, 02:23
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the CASEVAC mission was not our choice...
True. However, it was of my opinion that it kept us employed and a hair better on keeping up with battlefield medicine trends. I always felt more like a warrior when I was with STS, but I the TacEvac mission rounded out some of my other experiences as well. PJ1, another great aspect of our career field is that whatever 'specialty' you feel like you embrace the most, there's a unit in ANG, AFRC, AFSOC, etc. that can accommodate that focus. FOBIT's no doubt, you are correct. But our mission sets were dwindling as everyone was self SARing mid point in the war, and that just made sense anyway...
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  #84  
Old 10 June 2014, 08:31
Rotor Strike please Rotor Strike please is offline
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Originally Posted by PJ1 View Post
I would like to mention that the CASEVAC mission was not our choice the SECDEF wanted to decrease recovery time of injured dramatically. The Pavelow is a resource at his disposal and it was deemed we would perform the mission along side PR. NatGeo did make it look like a life-flight mission and CASEVAC has created a generation of PJ's that are FOBITS and believe that our mission is just outside the rotor blade. In 10yrs of war we have gained skills but IMHO we have lost many basics that will take years to regain....
CASEVAC falls underneath the umbrella of Personnel Recovery, which is exactly the mission of an RQS. PJ's assigned to work in an RQS (not an STS) are doing exactly what they are supposed to be doing...especially CASEVAC. Your comment about Fobbits sells their service short, and is, I think, a bit shortsighted.

An assignment to an RQS isn't the cool team guy work, but it is crucial and rewarding work. Whether you asked to be there or not isn't really important. At some point in a PJ's career, there is an option to work at an STS if you want to be doing the other part of your job. If that's your thing, boogie.

Having worked with PJ's for 12 years, I didn't find STS PJ's to be better or worse than RQS PJ's, just walking a different path. All those paths are important and needed.
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  #85  
Old 10 June 2014, 16:37
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Did I call you a FOBIT Rotor strike? I don't recall that and thanks for your education on where CASEVAC is within PR. Yes, CASEVAC is part of the PARARECUEMEN's job but it did sell PARARESCUE short...While GA sits around waiting for CASEVAC which is by the way a very important mission we could be doing something more than playing air ambulance ie. supporting other facets of PR.

Last time I checked this is a PARARESCUE forum! Not the AVIATION forum!

In addition, I am speaking as a Team Leader that has watched us (GA) lose skills that we will take years to get back...I was in ST, an instructor, and in multiple rescue units...and for you to say GA is doing exactly what it is suppose to do, how is it that you know this? 12 years of working with PJ's? I have 24 yrs flying on 60's and I have yet to tell a pilot how to air re-fuel, lanes are made for a reason..Stay in them
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  #86  
Old 10 June 2014, 18:53
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AFpj,

In noway am I saying that CASEVAC/MEDEVAC did not help with medicine, but we have a whole generation of GA that thinks our mission is 20 minute flights and that we are attached to the 60's. I was just at a conference where many forgot that we are inherently a ground force, and that the 60's and 130's are insertion/extraction platforms. We (GA) have always had the capability of doing unilateral extended ground operations in support of PR operations.
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  #87  
Old 11 June 2014, 00:13
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PJ1, be careful how you talk about your dudes being a "ground force." While they are in fact a boots on ground force, that doesn't make them part of the doctrinal ground force. CFLCC doesn't own RQS PJs, the CFACC does and that plays into how you need to sell your capabilities.

I would argue you can't do a purely unilateral operation, you can do a largely unilateral from 60's and 130's operation. That doesn't make your team commander a GFC, it makes you the mission commander. If you couch your arguments in combat air force terms you'll be better received.

You have legitimate arguments, but they get lost in Special Ops terminology that isn't applicable to CAF GA squadrons.
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  #88  
Old 11 June 2014, 02:00
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Why don't you guys go over to Vegas PJ's and talk to the new CC and have this argument. I am willing to bet he will say the same things I am saying. Unilateral means we are able to do extended field operations with limited support as a GA team, You can argue it all you want it is fact, why do PJ's practice field craft? In addition, the terminology you refer to is being used in GA squadrons, again go to the GA squadron in Vegas and ask how they are organized and trained.

Bottomline, this was about training/capabilities that have been lost over the years and you pilots can say what you want, it's fact.

When you launch from your location, generally you perform your entire job in one flight, correct? GA performs a fraction of it's capability on any of those flights.

Also, I find it laughable that you 2 are on here telling PJ's what a PJ is supposed to do. How many other pilots feel the need to do the same in other forums, how bout this, go to the SEAL forum and chime in on SEAL issues ..See how all of your comments will be received
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  #89  
Old 11 June 2014, 10:01
Rotor Strike please Rotor Strike please is offline
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Originally Posted by PJ1 View Post
Did I call you a FOBIT Rotor strike? I don't recall that and thanks for your education on where CASEVAC is within PR. Yes, CASEVAC is part of the PARARECUEMEN's job but it did sell PARARESCUE short...While GA sits around waiting for CASEVAC which is by the way a very important mission we could be doing something more than playing air ambulance ie. supporting other facets of PR.

Last time I checked this is a PARARESCUE forum! Not the AVIATION forum!

In addition, I am speaking as a Team Leader that has watched us (GA) lose skills that we will take years to get back...I was in ST, an instructor, and in multiple rescue units...and for you to say GA is doing exactly what it is suppose to do, how is it that you know this? 12 years of working with PJ's? I have 24 yrs flying on 60's and I have yet to tell a pilot how to air re-fuel, lanes are made for a reason..Stay in them
Never stated you called me a fobbit. However, your little diatribe about being forced to do CASEVAC shows your ass quite well. While you offer some valid points, the way you are going about making your point does you no justice. Repeated exclaimations about being your own little standalone special operations army are misguided and only serve to put off those that would otherwise support your mission.

Either way, go forth with your bad self.
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  #90  
Old 12 June 2014, 01:05
busdriver busdriver is offline
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Why don't you guys go over to Vegas PJ's and talk to the new CC and have this argument. I am willing to bet he will say the same things I am saying.
Dude I've had this argument with the current 58th commander, let's just say we agree to disagree but our argument is more nuanced than what you're talking about. My point isn't that you guys can't be a credible boots on ground force. The point is based in doctrine, rescue PJs are a part of the air component, good luck getting the land component commander signing off on a ground force commander designation. There are times when you guys on the ground may be the on scene commander and maybe even the overall mission commander, but that doesn't change the fact that operationally, both of us will most likely be an arm of the air component. The fact that you guys have adopted terms to more closely align with the Army/Socom is fine, but you need to be bi-lingual and speak Air Force as well.

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Unilateral means we are able to do extended field operations with limited support as a GA team
In other words not unilateral(limited support =/= unilateral). Rescue is terrible in actually integrating with the larger air force with respect to what support is actually required. As the helo dude I just want to ensure you have the support you need and the contracts are solid. If I was your commander, I'd be OK with you doing all kinds of overland missions without me (HH-60) being present, but I'd be damned sure you had what you need. Right now I don't think rescue as a whole really knows what that is, and what those contracts really are. I know this based on helping with a couple team lead upgrades on my last deployment.

Just as importantly, I know most HH-60 flight leads don't know how you plan an overland movement, so they can't really coordinate to get you the assets you need. They don't understand how you operate outside of the helo protection bubble, and how they can go get the assests you need.

It comes down to risk to mission and risk to force, most of our young guys just default to Leroy Jenkins, we'll do it. But there is no base line understanding of what assumptions are involved.

Quote:
Also, I find it laughable that you 2 are on here telling PJ's what a PJ is supposed to do.
Rotorstrike is not a pilot, I am. That said, I've worked with PJs my entire career. I've had good relations with your bros for the most part and I've made it a point to no shit understand your capabilities, because at the end of the day once I put you guys on the ground, leaving is the single hardest decision I will ever face. I will gladly run my happy ass out of gas to support you guys and evade together than leave you. I hope that's pretty universal.
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  #91  
Old 12 June 2014, 10:38
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Thinking about this conversation this morning, it's coming off all wrong and I'm out.

Let's just say I agree that the last ten years has resulted in a loss of proficiency at the range of operations that we could be called to do.
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  #92  
Old 17 June 2014, 11:11
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Just started watching the series and it is gripping and gritty. One thing though, and this is only my impression, it seems that the ER surgeons at the NATO hospital act snippy toward the PJs. It may be that they are totally focused on the wounded, what needs to be done and are just trying to get the most accurate information they can, but their attitudes, again to me, were condescending.
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  #93  
Old 18 June 2014, 16:24
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Huge respect to the crews doing that job.

The discussion between Rotor Strike please, busdriver and PJ1 starting at post 90 brings up a question:
Does this show offer a narrow/limited view of the Pararescue mission?
(Google did not give me a clear/singular definition of some acronyms used above)
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  #94  
Old 18 June 2014, 18:03
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Yes
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  #95  
Old 19 June 2014, 05:28
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Yes, but it's not just a limited view of the "pararescue mission." It's a limited view of what Air Force Rescue does across the spectrum of military operations.
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  #96  
Old 19 June 2014, 09:06
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I just wish they would dedicate an episode to the PJ Prank Battles...

Most of their "comedic operations" are absolutely PRICELESS!
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  #97  
Old 20 June 2014, 01:09
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Thanks for the replies-
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  #98  
Old 27 June 2014, 20:19
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Watching this on Netflix. It shows you all in a good light, though I hate the narrator's melodrama voice. And every time he says 'the golden hour' I want to reach through the screen and choke him.

Too bad it doesn't give any sense of the PJs mission for deep penetration, extrication and extraction, etc.

Question: what's the role of the guy who's described simply as "medical technician"? I take it that's a support role of some sort.

Fly safe out there.
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  #99  
Old 28 June 2014, 01:16
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Good show and I will always be appreciative of Dust Off and especially Pedro. There were times giving an LZ brief that I didn't think they would land, but they always did. Thanks guys
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  #100  
Old 15 July 2014, 12:52
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X2. Funny stuff



Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotmike View Post
I just wish they would dedicate an episode to the PJ Prank Battles...

Most of their "comedic operations" are absolutely PRICELESS!
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