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  #21  
Old 11 March 2010, 00:56
RetiredSOCS RetiredSOCS is offline
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.....also if it makes you feel any better, in the last 3 1/2 years I have sent over 150 recruits to RTC with SEAL contracts and the ones that have made it past hell week are exacly the ones I thought would make it with only one or two exceptions.
  #22  
Old 11 March 2010, 01:07
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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I understand that the guys are always going to bitch that it is "easier" than it was, that is the nature of the beast but when they say they are not allowed to hammer the guys anymore, that everything has to be scheduled and everything they do is questioned it makes me a skeptic. I am not sure how taking that many weeks off also does not make it easier, it might make for a smoother transition but at the end of the day it is about getting more numbers through and I am betting someone crunched the numbers on that and figured they would get so many more guys through per year by doing that, the same way they crunched the numbers on winter hell weeks.
  #23  
Old 11 March 2010, 09:26
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Originally Posted by Medic5392 View Post
I understand that the guys are always going to bitch that it is "easier" than it was, that is the nature of the beast but when they say they are not allowed to hammer the guys anymore, that everything has to be scheduled and everything they do is questioned it makes me a skeptic. I am not sure how taking that many weeks off also does not make it easier, it might make for a smoother transition but at the end of the day it is about getting more numbers through and I am betting someone crunched the numbers on that and figured they would get so many more guys through per year by doing that, the same way they crunched the numbers on winter hell weeks.
You might want to get specific with your instructor friends. Ask them to think about all the guys they thought slipped through the cracks that also made it to graduation. I bet there will not be very many.
  #24  
Old 11 March 2010, 09:47
txb&b txb&b is offline
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Originally Posted by RetiredSOCS View Post
Each phase is now 7 weeks which makes for a smoother transition from phase to phase.
With phases being 7 weeks now, does that put Hell Week at week 6?

Something else I've been curious about is how the attrition rate percentages are calculated. Is it the number of BUD/S grads divided by the number classing up at Phase 1 or by the number reporting to Indoc?
  #25  
Old 11 March 2010, 10:47
greenwarrior1 greenwarrior1 is offline
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Originally Posted by txb&b View Post
I've been curious about is how the attrition rate percentages are calculated. Is it the number of BUD/S grads divided by the number classing up at Phase 1 or by the number reporting to Indoc?
That one is always going to be open to some "other" factors. i.e., say BUD/S Class 270 (the following are NOT actual numbers) started Phase 1 with 150 guys and at graduation, Class 270 had 20 graduates. But 8 of those were rollbacks from earlier classes...

Ok, so you could say 12 original grads from the original 150. But wait... 12 of the originals rolled back into other classes and 5 of those graduated with other classes. So do you say 17 originals from Class 270 graduated BUD/S... but not all with Class 270... even further if 5 of those "originals" that got rolled back, say 2 of them got rolled back before Class 270 Hell Week and started class 271 from phase 1, day 1.... do you count them as Class 270 originals or 271 originals? And it could on with other different scenarios.

I think basically you see my point. It's all going to come down to the factors you consider and all the different parameters.
  #26  
Old 11 March 2010, 11:58
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The following are actual numbers of SQT graduates (orig / roll-in) NOT including officers:

267 (8 / 21) = 29
268 (10 / 22) = 32
269 (5 / 20) = 25
270 (7/12) = 19
271 (15 / 17) = 32
272 (8 / 18) = 26
273 (11 / 25) = 36
274 (6 / 27) = 33
275 (12 / 21) = 33

You guys can decide for yourselves if you think training has gotten easier.
  #27  
Old 15 March 2010, 16:30
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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I think they have

When the BUD/S Instructors say it, when the numbers jump way up (I noticed you left out Officer Numbers), when they cut out 5 weeks to make it more "effecient", yes, it is easier.

"A Washington Post story in 2006 quoted the top SEAL commander as saying he might eliminate some water-immersion sessions to help more candidates pass. The command’s leaders now say they have not cut back on water challenges outright, but have adjusted them based on prevailing conditions, including the surf and weather."

Sorry SOCS, they have made it easier, when that many things go together I am not sure how you can say it has not gotten easier. Yes, the prep work is better as is the recruiting but the stress and evolutions have gotten easier. They have kept the Run, Swim and O-Course Times but the stuff that really makes it hard-JOCK UP, Circus, Hammer Sessions, Surf Torture Times, etc..are gone or shadows of their former selves. So, I have to respectfully disagree with you and say I think that they have dropped the training down a few notches. I know the pressure that is on the O's to get the numbers up, if you think they are not going to do whatever they have to do in order to get those numbers up and make their next paygrade I think you are in denial or forgetting how those politics come into play.

Last edited by Medic5392; 15 March 2010 at 16:32.
  #28  
Old 15 March 2010, 17:05
RetiredSOCS RetiredSOCS is offline
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Originally Posted by Medic5392 View Post
When the BUD/S Instructors say it, when the numbers jump way up (I noticed you left out Officer Numbers), when they cut out 5 weeks to make it more "effecient", yes, it is easier.

"A Washington Post story in 2006 quoted the top SEAL commander as saying he might eliminate some water-immersion sessions to help more candidates pass. The commandís leaders now say they have not cut back on water challenges outright, but have adjusted them based on prevailing conditions, including the surf and weather."

Sorry SOCS, they have made it easier, when that many things go together I am not sure how you can say it has not gotten easier. Yes, the prep work is better as is the recruiting but the stress and evolutions have gotten easier. They have kept the Run, Swim and O-Course Times but the stuff that really makes it hard-JOCK UP, Circus, Hammer Sessions, Surf Torture Times, etc..are gone or shadows of their former selves. So, I have to respectfully disagree with you and say I think that they have dropped the training down a few notches. I know the pressure that is on the O's to get the numbers up, if you think they are not going to do whatever they have to do in order to get those numbers up and make their next paygrade I think you are in denial or forgetting how those politics come into play.
I don't have officer numbers because they are not visible to me. The system we use to track enlisted candidates does not include officers. The enlisted numbers I provided clearly do not show a huge increase in the number making it through training. However, I will agree that starting with Class 280 the numbers will start to get higher.

Now I'm going to cross over into theory. NSW as a whole played right into the hands of all the outside influences that have been trying to get us to lower our standards for years. It started when RADM Maguire convinced Navy Recruiting Command that they should hire former Team Guys to act as Mentors at each of the 26 recruiting districts across the country (started in 2006). Next came the funneling of all NSW recruits into special divisions at RTC and the formation of the 8-week BUD/S Prep Course following RTC.

I came to the unsettling conclusion that no matter what I did to help these young recruits, that only about 10% of them had a chance of making it beyond Hell Week. That 10% never needed me to begin with and I realized that I was earning a living based on a lie.

Now I will take it one step further. After nearly 4 years and millions of dollars spent there has been no real increase in BUD/S output. Just like the mafia, the outside influences have come to collect. They will now force NSW to lower standards and there isn't a damn thing NSW can do to stop it.

In the words of Ashton Kutcher, "we have just been punked!" You still think I'm in denial about the politics?
  #29  
Old 15 March 2010, 17:26
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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Nope, all I can say to that post is AMEN Brother! Although I think they could stop it if they wanted too, but the Admirals and many 06's care far more about meeting goals and getting promoted than they ever will about the community or product.
  #30  
Old 16 March 2010, 18:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RetiredSOCS View Post
The following are actual numbers of SQT graduates (orig / roll-in) NOT including officers:

267 (8 / 21) = 29
268 (10 / 22) = 32
269 (5 / 20) = 25
270 (7/12) = 19
271 (15 / 17) = 32
272 (8 / 18) = 26
273 (11 / 25) = 36
274 (6 / 27) = 33
275 (12 / 21) = 33

You guys can decide for yourselves if you think training has gotten easier.
Can I ask why there are so many roll back graduates? Are those all injury related?
  #31  
Old 17 March 2010, 10:03
greenwarrior1 greenwarrior1 is offline
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Can I ask why there are so many roll back graduates? Are those all injury related?
gliddens - post an intro

Last edited by greenwarrior1; 17 March 2010 at 10:04. Reason: deleted answer as questioner has not posted an intro
  #32  
Old 17 March 2010, 15:08
gliddens
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My apologies. Intro posted.
  #33  
Old 18 March 2010, 09:21
RetiredSOCS RetiredSOCS is offline
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Can I ask why there are so many roll back graduates? Are those all injury related?
Because BUD/S is hard! Most are injury related but some are due to performance.
  #34  
Old 18 March 2010, 09:29
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Originally Posted by RetiredSOCS View Post
For example, the tread with twin-80's was a fam in my class but today is a pass or fail evolution. All the guys I have sent off to BUD/S tell me it really kicked their asses. For me it was no big deal and only 4 guys in my class completed the evolution.

.

I'm confused about this statement. I was in class 167, the first class to use the twin 80's as opposed to the steel twin 72's. The treading water and such was pass or fail in my class.

Was there a change at some point?
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  #35  
Old 18 March 2010, 13:01
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I'm confused about this statement. I was in class 167, the first class to use the twin 80's as opposed to the steel twin 72's. The treading water and such was pass or fail in my class.

Was there a change at some point?
I remember this evolution like it was yesterday. Class 188 had to tread with hands out of the water. If you lowered your hands you got pulled out and told to lay on your back with twin-80's on and feet and arms in the air like a dead bug. Two guys actually non-verbal DOR'd because they panicked and swam to the side without being told. Even with their hands down they couldn't keep themselves from sinking. Only 3 or 4 guys in my class finished the full 5 minutes with hands out of the water. Everyone else played dead bug until time was up then got beat.

None of the guys who dropped their hands had to redo the tread. That really doesn't sound like pass/fail to me.

I spoke with CB who was the BUD/S director of training about a year ago, and he specifically mentioned the tread as being one of those evolutions that every team guy could give a different take on how it was done for their class and how we as a community need to standardize training.
  #36  
Old 18 March 2010, 16:04
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Originally Posted by RetiredSOCS View Post
I remember this evolution like it was yesterday. Class 188 had to tread with hands out of the water. If you lowered your hands you got pulled out and told to lay on your back with twin-80's on and feet and arms in the air like a dead bug. Two guys actually non-verbal DOR'd because they panicked and swam to the side without being told. Even with their hands down they couldn't keep themselves from sinking. Only 3 or 4 guys in my class finished the full 5 minutes with hands out of the water. Everyone else played dead bug until time was up then got beat.

None of the guys who dropped their hands had to redo the tread. That really doesn't sound like pass/fail to me.

I spoke with CB who was the BUD/S director of training about a year ago, and he specifically mentioned the tread as being one of those evolutions that every team guy could give a different take on how it was done for their class and how we as a community need to standardize training.

Weird, it was pass/fail in my class.

We did, however, learn that the twin 80's will float if they are empty. We figured it out about halfway through. The instructors couldn't figure out why no one was having issues with the tread, I barely had to kick my legs.


Of course, they eventually caught on and made us do it again with the twin 72's, which sucked, then we got the JOCK UP drill for 4 hours after we ran back behind the cattle car from the CTT.

The pass/fail thing may have changed due to the whole twin 80 change over.

No matter, pool comp was were they got rid of a lot of chaff anyway.
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  #37  
Old 19 March 2010, 10:21
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We did, however, learn that the twin 80's will float if they are empty. We figured it out about halfway through. The instructors couldn't figure out why no one was having issues with the tread, I barely had to kick my legs.
shhhhh... you're giving away the secrets to the newbies.
  #38  
Old 19 March 2010, 10:53
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shhhhh... you're giving away the secrets to the newbies.
LOL, I thought about that, but I figured that was probably common knowledge now.

I still have scars on the back of my noggin from the jock up drills.
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  #39  
Old 19 March 2010, 12:02
RetiredSOCS RetiredSOCS is offline
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shhhhh... you're giving away the secrets to the newbies.
Don't worry, in my experience, the guys who come on here and ask questions to random strangers instead of their mentors are all gonna quit anyway.
  #40  
Old 19 March 2010, 23:32
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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It was a pass fail in my class too

It was a pass/fail event, but a lot of things changed when we had a Dive Accident in Pool Comp, it was either Class 177 or 178, they backed way off on stuff for a little bit. A Congressman from MN claimed no Docs, HMs, Ambulance was around but our there were HMs undergoing Dive Medicine Training and doing coverage, plus a DMO with a Junior Doc and the Ambulance right where it always is by the loading dock. Still caused a lot of problems though, the Congressman went off on lack of safety, etc..total lies but did not stop the paper from printing his words. Apparently he was a US Rep when another kid did die in the past due to a water evolution, Apple Valley was the area I think, not 100% on that, been a wee bit of time.
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