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  #81  
Old 22 February 2012, 21:59
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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Originally Posted by RetiredSOCS View Post
Completely untrue! Mentors get a performance bonus based on the percentage of recruits who graduate RTC with their SEAL, SWCC, EOD, Diver and Air Rescue Swimmer contracts in tact.
The mentor program was created to change the fact that 80% of SEAL candidates never made it to the front door of BUD/S because of unethical recruiting practices and indifference by the fleet RDC's at boot camp. Mentors have been incredibly successful in accomplishing the mission that was assigned to us. Being blamed because the bean counters at BUD/S have gone soft quite frankly pisses me off. ony monetary benefit for the students only comes after earning the Trident. I wonder if you would have given an enlistment bonus back out of principle. I highly doubt it.

From 2006 to 2010 I personally sent 150 SEAL recruits off to boot camp. Of those only about a dozen are wearing Tridents today. I can't speak for what has happened since I left in March 2010 but 12 out of 150 doesn't seem like better than normal odds to me.

Bottom line is get your facts straight before dropping bombs on the mentors.

Look dude, the facts are that the mentor idea was good in theory but what it has become is a shoulder for these kids to cry on every second. Some have asked for more access to the students all the way through. If you don't think a mentor here or there has already asked off line about that you are kidding yourself. The fact that you guys were even at that Hell Week tells me it has gone to far and that the "Good Idea Fairy" has gotten out of hand. I am sure you are a good guy, you do the right thing, are you going to tell me that all the guys are? That all the guys will look at the big picture of how it affects the community vice their guy they have a stake in? Are you going to tell me that the mentors would never lobby an instructor they might know for a guy they like? Wouldn't want to be there to give the guys the motivation? What's next? Cheerleaders?

Dude, the program is flawed, that is all I am saying and while I understand you taking this personally I have seen so many problems arise out of the whole recruitment and prep process now that it needs to change or at least be less big navy and be less all about numbers. To be straight, I think you guys are a tiny, tiny fix, no access after they start BUD/S, period. Edit-also, no talking to phase instructors regarding students, period. Wow, where done.

The other stuff is far more of a problem, so not sure why you think I don't have my fact straight and it's not a bomb, it's just what happens when with humans at times when they interact: Self-Interest become the focus.

Last edited by Medic5392; 22 February 2012 at 22:20.
  #82  
Old 22 February 2012, 22:55
RetiredSOCS RetiredSOCS is offline
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Originally Posted by Medic5392 View Post
I am sure you are a good guy, you do the right thing, are you going to tell me that all the guys are? That all the guys will look at the big picture of how it affects the community vice their guy they have a stake in? Are you going to tell me that the mentors would never lobby an instructor they might know for a guy they like? Wouldn't want to be there to give the guys the motivation? What's next? Cheerleaders?..........To be straight, I think you guys are a tiny, tiny fix, no access after they start BUD/S, period. Edit-also, no talking to phase instructors regarding students, period. Wow, where done.
I knew when I started the mentor job that lobbying instructors on behalf of a student would be a death sentence for that student. So I never did it. If other mentors have done that then shame on them. But don't blame the entire mentorship program.

I think there needs to be an open line of communication from the instructor staff at BUD/S to the Mentor program manager at Recruiting HQ in Memphis so that this type of behavior can be stopped dead in its tracks as soon as it happens.

All I ever asked from BUD/S is that they update the database that all mentors have access to so we could keep track of their progress. When I left the mentor job the system hadn't been updated for 6 or more months.

For the record, I only had one guy in class 275 whose hellweek I observed. He was a stud from the get go and made it through on his own merits and is now wearing a Trident. 10 out of the 12 Trident wearers I shipped off texted or called me for advice from time to time. Two of them I never liked but somehow slipped though the cracks. I completely ignored these guys when they shipped off to boot camp. Should I conveniently blame the instructor staff at BUD/S for them making it through?
  #83  
Old 22 February 2012, 23:05
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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Originally Posted by RetiredSOCS View Post
I knew when I started the mentor job that lobbying instructors on behalf of a student would be a death sentence for that student. So I never did it. If other mentors have done that then shame on them. But don't blame the entire mentorship program.

I think there needs to be an open line of communication from the instructor staff at BUD/S to the Mentor program manager at Recruiting HQ in Memphis so that this type of behavior can be stopped dead in its tracks as soon as it happens.

All I ever asked from BUD/S is that they update the database that all mentors have access to so we could keep track of their progress. When I left the mentor job the system hadn't been updated for 6 or more months.

For the record, I only had one guy in class 275 whose hellweek I observed. He was a stud from the get go and made it through on his own merits and is now wearing a Trident. 10 out of the 12 Trident wearers I shipped off texted or called me for advice from time to time. Two of them I never liked but somehow slipped though the cracks. I completely ignored these guys when they shipped off to boot camp. Should I conveniently blame the instructor staff at BUD/S for them making it through?
Dude, I am sorry, I disagree with you having any comms with those kids once they start. BUD/S is a big mind game and that is half the battle, maybe you don't tell them the tricks of the trade but I am sure others do. That shit matters, even at Pre-Training in Great Lakes they were telling the guys stuff that IMO they should not be telling them. The prior CMC there is now at BUD/S, think there is a conflict? As for the turds getting through, go read all of my posts again concerning this topic, you are not a big part of the problem but I do believe in your current form and with the amount of communication that I know goes on between mentors and students throughout BUD/S it should stop. I hate that the Navy, that the Pentagon and even our Senior Officers often look at us as just numbers, it bugs me but as for the kids who are not SEALs yet? Screw them, when they get through you can pick up communication with them, until then they need to leave the nest and fly on their own.

As another side note-I am sick of hearing about parents calling BUD/S, their Congressman or anyone because their kid did not make it. All of the things I mentioned are gonna hit the community hard down the road if it does not get stopped and our names, our history and our community will be mud.
  #84  
Old 22 February 2012, 23:28
RetiredSOCS RetiredSOCS is offline
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Originally Posted by Medic5392 View Post
Dude, I am sorry, I disagree with you having any comms with those kids once they start. BUD/S is a big mind game and that is half the battle, maybe you don't tell them the tricks of the trade but I am sure others do. That shit matters, even at Pre-Training in Great Lakes they were telling the guys stuff that IMO they should not be telling them. The prior CMC there is now at BUD/S, think there is a conflict? As for the turds getting through, go read all of my posts again concerning this topic, you are not a big part of the problem but I do believe in your current form and with the amount of communication that I know goes on between mentors and students throughout BUD/S it should stop. I hate that the Navy, that the Pentagon and even our Senior Officers often look at us as just numbers, it bugs me but as for the kids who are not SEALs yet? Screw them, when they get through you can pick up communication with them, until then they need to leave the nest and fly on their own.

As another side note-I am sick of hearing about parents calling BUD/S, their Congressman or anyone because their kid did not make it. All of the things I mentioned are gonna hit the community hard down the road if it does not get stopped and our names, our history and our community will be mud.
Here's another way to look at it though. I had a ton of friends who were SEALs before I went to BUD/S and they told me everything about it. It actually made me dread what I knew was coming more than had I just gone in blind.

Should policy be dictated by opinion when there are valid opposite opinions? Not IMO. Shitbags don't make it through beacause of a few encouraging words by a mentor. They make it through when standards are lowered and they clearly have been. Focus your anger there.
  #85  
Old 22 February 2012, 23:43
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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Originally Posted by RetiredSOCS View Post
Here's another way to look at it though. I had a ton of friends who were SEALs before I went to BUD/S and they told me everything about it. It actually made me dread what I knew was coming more than had I just gone in blind.

Should policy be dictated by opinion when there are valid opposite opinions? Not IMO. Shitbags don't make it through beacause of a few encouraging words by a mentor. They make it through when standards are lowered and they clearly have been. Focus your anger there.

Dude, not the same and you know it. Did you text, call or have those buddies whenever you could? Did they come to BUD/S to give you encouragement?

Look, your part of that program, I disagree that you should have contact with them after they start BUD/S, you do not and I doubt I will change your mind. I think we will have to agree to disagree on that part. Turds make it through for a variety of reasons and having guys help them out through it as a virtual cheerleader is one of them. Mentor the guys into BUD/S and stop, that is my view, yours is not. What is your reason for advocating for continued contact with the guys through BUD/S? Also, with your advocacy of communications with the students, continued mentorship throughout then do you also advocate against the other things I mentioned that are causing problems with the quality of recruits? If you are in for a penny you should be in for a pound. You are the first gate keeper for the type of guys we get, so if you want to have access to them throughout what are you doing to ensure we continue to get a good product other than getting them in shape and the paper work all in order?

Last edited by Medic5392; 22 February 2012 at 23:57.
  #86  
Old 23 February 2012, 00:55
RetiredSOCS RetiredSOCS is offline
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Originally Posted by Medic5392 View Post
Dude, not the same and you know it. Did you text, call or have those buddies whenever you could? Did they come to BUD/S to give you encouragement?
No I don't know it. Sure I couldn't text back then but Shirazi paid me a visit while I was in 2nd Phase. I was beat incessantly when I knew the same couple of guys as one of my 3rd phase instructors. He didn't have anything against me he just wanted to show me some extra love.

I knew as much as a guy could possibly know about BUD/S before hand and I do not feel it was any benefit to me at all. To graduate I had to perform to standards period.

When I analyze every interaction I had with my mentorees, I don't see that it mattered at all. They still had to perform. Some did, most didn't. The numbers I have presented already don't lie and they don't show that I was particularly successful as a mentor. These numbers fly in the face of every argument you have made at least as far as my experience would demonstrate.

In four years as a mentor I made 4 trips to BUD/S 3 in conjunction with SQT graduations / recruiting conference and once for the already mentioned Hell Week.

The Mentor in SD works out of the CTT on NAB. I suspect most of your anger should be directed at him. He's really the only one with the access to meddle as much as you have described.
  #87  
Old 23 February 2012, 09:20
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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Originally Posted by RetiredSOCS View Post
No I don't know it. Sure I couldn't text back then but Shirazi paid me a visit while I was in 2nd Phase. I was beat incessantly when I knew the same couple of guys as one of my 3rd phase instructors. He didn't have anything against me he just wanted to show me some extra love.

I knew as much as a guy could possibly know about BUD/S before hand and I do not feel it was any benefit to me at all. To graduate I had to perform to standards period.

When I analyze every interaction I had with my mentorees, I don't see that it mattered at all. They still had to perform. Some did, most didn't. The numbers I have presented already don't lie and they don't show that I was particularly successful as a mentor. These numbers fly in the face of every argument you have made at least as far as my experience would demonstrate.

In four years as a mentor I made 4 trips to BUD/S 3 in conjunction with SQT graduations / recruiting conference and once for the already mentioned Hell Week.

The Mentor in SD works out of the CTT on NAB. I suspect most of your anger should be directed at him. He's really the only one with the access to meddle as much as you have described.

Dude, that is the thing, I was not that angry and was not angry at you specifically. I am angry at the leadership that is constantly picking away at BUD/S as for the Mentors, brother, it's not as big a deal and I said so. I get that you take it personal, it's not though. The system is broken and needs to be fixed or the product we continue to get will not be the product we used to make, we will be like Detroit, a place where great things used to be made but now not so much.
  #88  
Old 23 February 2012, 10:13
RetiredSOCS RetiredSOCS is offline
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Originally Posted by Medic5392 View Post
Dude, that is the thing, I was not that angry and was not angry at you specifically. I am angry at the leadership that is constantly picking away at BUD/S as for the Mentors, brother, it's not as big a deal and I said so. I get that you take it personal, it's not though. The system is broken and needs to be fixed or the product we continue to get will not be the product we used to make, we will be like Detroit, a place where great things used to be made but now not so much.
I left the good paying mentor job after 4 years because I felt like nothing I did made a difference in getting more quality guys through. It just doesn't compute to me that mentors have anything to do with BUD/S instuctors' hands being tied by bean counters. It was sold to me and all the other mentors by RADM Maguire in 2006 that BUD/S standards would never change and that we as mentors would solve the problem of getting the best quality candidates to the school house. We held up our end of the bargain and are now being blamed by intstructors for something completely out of our control.
  #89  
Old 23 February 2012, 17:14
RINEHART RINEHART is offline
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Any advice on navy jobs to take to enter into the fleet transition program to get located in Coronado or possibly San Diego? Will be in the Navy for two years before I can get a shot at Buds and want to prepare in a useful rating in the Navy. Again, thanks for your input.
  #90  
Old 23 February 2012, 20:12
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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Originally Posted by RetiredSOCS View Post
I left the good paying mentor job after 4 years because I felt like nothing I did made a difference in getting more quality guys through. It just doesn't compute to me that mentors have anything to do with BUD/S instuctors' hands being tied by bean counters. It was sold to me and all the other mentors by RADM Maguire in 2006 that BUD/S standards would never change and that we as mentors would solve the problem of getting the best quality candidates to the school house. We held up our end of the bargain and are now being blamed by intstructors for something completely out of our control.

Dude, for the last time, you are not being blamed as THE problem. The standards have been dropped, they stopped Winter Hell Weeks, they do not allow the Instructors to hammer the kids without a REAL justification and then it is limited, they make sure the kids see pool comp over and over again before they do it, they micro-manage the instructors to the point that they get yelled at if kids do not make it through, they dropped 5 freaking weeks off BUD/S and fight probation coming back, they have IG investigations every time a kid blames everyone but himself for a failure and the leadership allows all this and encourages this. The problem is a total lack of faith in senior leadership and everyone knows that the SOF Truths are bullshit. The kids going through BUD/S today are entitled when they go in and entitled when they come to the teams. That is not really on you, not sure how you are getting that out of what I have said over and over. Do you need a hug?

To all the kids coming in today, don't bitch and complain when you don't make it, don't do it for the tshirt, don't have your parents call their Congressmen, don't whine to the Officer's that the "paint was to expensive" for helmets, that the you were called bad names, basically stop being pussies it causes me headaches and makes the teams look like shit.

Our Senior Leadership has failed us and every single time a guy gets out he has told me it is either that the teams were not what they thought they were going to be (ie; we doing FID and not DA oriented missions) or the leadership, usually it is a combo of both. We have failed as a community and now spout more propaganda and silliness between "The Ethos", "The Creed" and "The SOF Truths". The guys are not stupid, this is not the 1940's, these are not 18 year old kids with low ASVABs or no college, they see through the bullshit and we will suck if we do not halt it.
  #91  
Old 23 February 2012, 22:29
MISOsoup MISOsoup is offline
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RetiredSOCS
This may sound lie such a noob question but are you required to be enlisted in the Navy or may other branches try out for SEAL? If so how does a Army reservist once active army make such a transition?
Thank You for your time
  #92  
Old 23 February 2012, 22:38
RetiredSOCS RetiredSOCS is offline
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Originally Posted by Medic5392 View Post
Dude, for the last time, you are not being blamed as THE problem. The standards have been dropped, they stopped Winter Hell Weeks, they do not allow the Instructors to hammer the kids without a REAL justification and then it is limited, they make sure the kids see pool comp over and over again before they do it, they micro-manage the instructors to the point that they get yelled at if kids do not make it through, they dropped 5 freaking weeks off BUD/S and fight probation coming back, they have IG investigations every time a kid blames everyone but himself for a failure and the leadership allows all this and encourages this. The problem is a total lack of faith in senior leadership and everyone knows that the SOF Truths are bullshit. The kids going through BUD/S today are entitled when they go in and entitled when they come to the teams. That is not really on you, not sure how you are getting that out of what I have said over and over. Do you need a hug?

To all the kids coming in today, don't bitch and complain when you don't make it, don't do it for the tshirt, don't have your parents call their Congressmen, don't whine to the Officer's that the "paint was to expensive" for helmets, that the you were called bad names, basically stop being pussies it causes me headaches and makes the teams look like shit.

Our Senior Leadership has failed us and every single time a guy gets out he has told me it is either that the teams were not what they thought they were going to be (ie; we doing FID and not DA oriented missions) or the leadership, usually it is a combo of both. We have failed as a community and now spout more propaganda and silliness between "The Ethos", "The Creed" and "The SOF Truths". The guys are not stupid, this is not the 1940's, these are not 18 year old kids with low ASVABs or no college, they see through the bullshit and we will suck if we do not halt it.
It sonds to me like we were always on the same sheet of music. We just have a difference of opinion on the role of mentors after these kids leave home. I personally think contact with mentors while at BUD/S (if handled correctly) can significantly reduce the whining you describe above. I still mentor my young SEALs today, even the ones with one or two deployments. Why, because I have been a platoon chief and know what a new guy needs to do to establish his reputation as a solid operator. I can't even remember the names of all the quitters though.
  #93  
Old 24 February 2012, 00:57
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Cass Cass is offline
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Medic5392
You have said your words several times over. Now let it go.

Retiried SOCS
You are responding to an ongoing argument of which there is only supposed opinion, no factual base.

I have the authority to "Close" this thread but will not at this time out of repspect for the service of both of you.

Ease away guys. You are both looking bad and making it look bad for those who have/had Team service.
  #94  
Old 24 February 2012, 08:20
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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Cass, this not opinion, the only opinion part was about the mentors, everything else is not-Winter Hell Week is gone, you can get 2 failures per evolution for runs/swims/ocourse per phase, 5 weeks has been dropped off selection, as are the other things I mentioned. Talk to a first or second phase instructor off line about it, I wish it was opinion but it is not, we are pretty civil and not sure why you are taking this on board as our debate making the teams or guys who have served look bad. I am a bit lost on that, not being snarky or anything, just do not understand it. Cass, I am concerned and the only people who are looking bad are those who implementing these things in selection and those who continue to advocate for additional measures to get numbers. This is not Team guy rumor or scuttlebutt, it's not the usual-"The Sky is Falling" panic or nostalgia for the "old days". Aren't you a little concerned too? Honestly, it does not bug you a little bit?
  #95  
Old 24 February 2012, 08:51
Medic5392 Medic5392 is offline
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Edited by Cass. Thread closed.

Last edited by Cass; 24 February 2012 at 13:17.
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