SOCNET

Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > Weapons

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 8 November 2019, 18:41
Rockville Rockville is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: VA
Posts: 1,168
"Army Futures Command testing new rifle scopes"

Did the Marine Corps tested too? And Navy and Air Forces?


https://insidedefense.com/insider/ar...w-rifle-scopes (subscriber only)

Army Futures Command testing new rifle scopes

November 8, 2019 at 12:27 PM

The Army Futures Command Maneuver Battle Lab is testing four new rifle scopes for the service's M4A1 Carbine. The effort is a part of the Army Expeditionary Warrior Experiment, a months-long annual assessment where soldiers at Ft. Benning, GA test out "60 to 70" new technologies from industry, according to lab Director Ed Davis. "In the next few days, we're looking at optics for some of our weapons that have been around for a while [that] we need to upgrade," Davis told Inside Defense in a Nov. 7 interview. "This gives us a way of looking at what industry nominates to us and see what's possible. . . . We can figure out how to go forward." Talon Expeditionary Services, FN America, LLC and Smart Shooter Inc. were chosen to produce four prototypes for soldiers to test during AEWE, according to an Army press release. Soldiers currently use the M68 close combat scope and M50 rifle combat scope. Staff Sergeant Michael Kennett, who tested the new optics, told Inside Defense that an extended shooting range is one of the biggest improvements with the new prototypes. The Army is looking for scopes that will allow soldiers to shoot up to 600 meters, according to Davis. Current optics allow for engagements under 300 meters. He added the service is in the process of collecting data from soldiers who have tested out the prototypes. Lt. Col. Chris Kennedy, lethality branch chief of the Maneuver Center of Excellence's Capabilities Development and Integration Directorate soldier division, said in an email the information gathered during the assessment will inform the Army's weapon enabler requirements. "There is no single requirements document this effort is linked to, but it will inform the entire [Small Arms Strategy]," Kennedy said. "We can learn things about rail space, shock profile, zero retention and increased accuracy. All this knowledge is blended into our strategy and into future requirements."
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 9 November 2019, 05:05
Polypro's Avatar
Polypro Polypro is offline
BTDT
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: A Noisy Bar In Avalon
Posts: 14,508
Is that supposed to be the M150 ACOG at 4x? So you can hit E-Type Silhouettes at 300 with Irons, but can't hit them at 600 with a 4x ACOG, with a BDC specifically designed for the exact rifle/ammo combo that the Army issues to 90% of the troops

Mo money, mo money - it's equipment, not training!

The boys at RTB and Sniper School get to play with all the new toys...
__________________
"The eight year assault, on your 2nd Amendment rights, is over!"
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 9 November 2019, 06:30
nofear's Avatar
nofear nofear is offline
Legal Immigrant
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: MT-bound in 2020
Posts: 3,490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockville View Post
The Army is looking for scopes that will allow soldiers to shoot up to 600 meters, according to Davis. Current optics allow for engagements under 300 meters.
Wasn't there evidence around a decade ago that most engagements in current (then) ops were under 300m?

I'm going to go ahead and ASSume that the situation has changed, requiring new equipment to meet a changed need...and not just someone changing things around to get promoted.
__________________
Fine print: Don 't read anything into my posts, other than what a funny & sarcastic friend would say to you over a beer.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 9 November 2019, 15:57
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: South
Posts: 7,953
Sounds like they want a LPVO scope. Cue a 1-8x.......
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11 November 2019, 09:06
GPC's Avatar
GPC GPC is offline
Freelancer
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: LFOD
Posts: 7,199
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
Is that supposed to be the M150 ACOG at 4x? So you can hit E-Type Silhouettes at 300 with Irons, but can't hit them at 600 with a 4x ACOG, with a BDC specifically designed for the exact rifle/ammo combo that the Army issues to 90% of the troops

Mo money, mo money - it's equipment, not training!

The boys at RTB and Sniper School get to play with all the new toys...
LOL, I remember using Irons at 500 with a M16A1.

Being honest, I rather see my tax dollars spent on this instead of new Camo or dress uniforms every few years.
__________________
Steel Rain Brings The Pain!
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11 November 2019, 12:03
leopardprey's Avatar
leopardprey leopardprey is online now
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 15,146
Thumbs up

Just go back to Olive Drab fatigues and give every soldier a Swamp Fox variable powered scope and be done with it.
__________________
"Look Sharp, Act Sharp, Be Sharp - But don't cut yourself!"
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11 November 2019, 12:12
Shadow's Avatar
Shadow Shadow is offline
Problem Solver
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 5,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by GPC View Post

LOL, I remember using Irons at 500 with a M16A1...
Yeah, me too.

I'm still appalled that the Corps no longer trains recruits to shoot and qualify using iron sights.

In other news, the Corps now also authorizes Marines to carry umbrellas while wearing service or dress uniforms...
__________________
"If you force me to do violence, I shall be so savage and so cruel, and hurt you so badly that the thought of revenge shall never cross your mind" --Machiavelli

"Oderint, dum metuant" ("Let them hate, so long as they fear") - Caligula

"Those that know don't talk and those that talk don't know."
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11 November 2019, 13:29
Gray Rhyno's Avatar
Gray Rhyno Gray Rhyno is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NoVa
Posts: 10,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
I'm still appalled that the Corps no longer trains recruits to shoot and qualify using iron sights.
Seriously? I remember that being the hardest part of the KD course. Do they use optics on the KD course?
Quote:
In other news, the Corps now also authorizes Marines to carry umbrellas while wearing service or dress uniforms...
To this day, I still cannot use an umbrella.
__________________
"The most HSLD stuff ever taught was the basics. So-called 'advanced training' is often no more than the very fluid and expert application of those basic skills." - SOTB
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11 November 2019, 13:52
bobofthedesert's Avatar
bobofthedesert bobofthedesert is offline
RIP SOTB, Cass, Hognose
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Middle of the Mojave
Posts: 4,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
I'm still appalled that the Corps no longer trains recruits to shoot and qualify using iron sights.
Wait, what?? "Every Marine a rifleman"? I mean, if you don't have that to offer, it's pretty much just a more restrictive lifestyle with more BS than the Army, right?

I must know or have met 20 Marines who did one hitch in the Corps and then walked right across the street to the Army recruiter anyway, so there's obviously a dynamic here.....
__________________
RIP Stevie D. 1964-2012
U.S. Army Veteran of OIF 2003
"Gone But Never Forgotten"

"Let us return to old times and that will be progress." - Verdi
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11 November 2019, 14:21
leopardprey's Avatar
leopardprey leopardprey is online now
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 15,146
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobofthedesert View Post
Wait, what?? "Every Marine a rifleman"? I mean, if you don't have that to offer, it's pretty much just a more restrictive lifestyle with more BS than the Army, right?

I must know or have met 20 Marines who did one hitch in the Corps and then walked right across the street to the Army recruiter anyway, so there's obviously a dynamic here.....
A lot of Marine vets in the 18X program.
__________________
"Look Sharp, Act Sharp, Be Sharp - But don't cut yourself!"
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11 November 2019, 16:07
Shadow's Avatar
Shadow Shadow is offline
Problem Solver
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 5,119
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post

...Do they use optics on the KD course?
Yes. No iron sights, period...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post

To this day, I still cannot use an umbrella...
That makes two of us. Old habits die hard...

Apparently, the reason for the change is that dress uniforms are expensive and replacing them due to rain damage is/would be cost-prohibitive, especially for those in the non-rated ranks.

I wore service/dress uniforms all the time on Recruiting Duty and never had to replace one due to "rain damage" but I guess I'm just old-Corps...
__________________
"If you force me to do violence, I shall be so savage and so cruel, and hurt you so badly that the thought of revenge shall never cross your mind" --Machiavelli

"Oderint, dum metuant" ("Let them hate, so long as they fear") - Caligula

"Those that know don't talk and those that talk don't know."
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11 November 2019, 20:22
EchoFiveMike's Avatar
EchoFiveMike EchoFiveMike is offline
Make a desert and call it peace.
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: back home, IVO chicago
Posts: 8,962
The various ammunition types are probably better discussed in the 6.8 thread, since they are part of that program.

Optics are great, I don't think there's been a significant improvement over the ACOG/MCO for general infantry operations. The red dot sights are better for CQB/MOUT, generally, but it's pretty trivial either way IMO. A competent shooter can make good use of either type, it's simply accepting that time on the range, shooting, is the critical issue.

Stop all this fucking about with wasted time and money, paying useless paper shufflers, spend the money on range time and ammo.

This is deliberate, the margins on ammo and ranges are tiny, and go to hardworking blue collar type people. The margins on paper shuffling R&D crap are huge, since there's all manner of kickbacks and junkets and associated crap involved, and this money goes to the managerial class.

The next optic fielded should be a compact, long battery life thermal. Nothing else is worth spending time and money on, that should be going towards ammo and range time. S/F....Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what I’m about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldn’t do if you still had your weapons."— L. Neil Smith

“The consolidation of the states into one vast empire, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of ruin which has overwhelmed all that preceded it.”
- Robert E. Lee
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11 November 2019, 20:57
Gray Rhyno's Avatar
Gray Rhyno Gray Rhyno is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NoVa
Posts: 10,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow View Post
Yes. No iron sights, period...
Damn. Tearing up the targets with iron sights was how I impressed the youngsters before my last deployment.
Quote:
I wore service/dress uniforms all the time on Recruiting Duty and never had to replace one due to "rain damage" but I guess I'm just old-Corps...
+1. Rain damage to uniforms?
__________________
"The most HSLD stuff ever taught was the basics. So-called 'advanced training' is often no more than the very fluid and expert application of those basic skills." - SOTB
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 12 November 2019, 10:04
bobofthedesert's Avatar
bobofthedesert bobofthedesert is offline
RIP SOTB, Cass, Hognose
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Middle of the Mojave
Posts: 4,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
A lot of Marine vets in the 18X program.
Met a couple of those. One guy I worked with OCONUS, didn't make the cut but a really good guy. We talked about this issue, it seems the Marines are able to turn out a product that does well elsewhere, so many still have the desire to do 20 in the military but not in the Corps after they have experience of it. The FFL apparently likes former Marines just fine, higher success rate than other Americans it seems.

I'll tell you this, (not news) one guy can fuck up shit far beyond his pay grade. The wife and I were watching that series that follows a Marine Infantry Company on Ops in Afghanistan. These guys got back to camp after a couple weeks in the field during which they lost a guy. Their CO stands up there and tells them they've earned nothing but the EGA on their chest. Just basically slaps them down. I wonder how many guys decided to do their military service in another branch after seeing a preview of what their boss in the Corps might be like. Man, fuck that guy. If anyone here knows him, please feel free to tell him I said so.

My oldest sons enlistment plans changed completely after that, my wife refused to consider the idea of our oldest joining the Marines (and that's after 2 years at MMA in Harlingen) rather than the Army after seeing how that tone deaf MF'er dealt with his guys, she did not like the idea of her son serving under a commander like that. And I agree. I find out you said something like that to an audience including my kid you will get a fucking letter of inquiry from every single one of 535 members of Congress. And the military loves that shit, ask me how I know. I understand why the Corps hemorrhages trained, experienced personnel to the other branches.
__________________
RIP Stevie D. 1964-2012
U.S. Army Veteran of OIF 2003
"Gone But Never Forgotten"

"Let us return to old times and that will be progress." - Verdi
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12 November 2019, 10:35
leopardprey's Avatar
leopardprey leopardprey is online now
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 15,146
There are plenty of Officers in the Army like that as well......as there are really good Officers as well in both the Marines and Army. Always be some Officers who are dicks, and try to be hard asses at the expense of their troops, or thrown their troops under the bus or kiss ass in order to move up in rank.

And then there are some really good officers, and senior NCOs as well, who complete change one they get that Full Bird, Star or CSM tanking - and forget their roots.

And then you have the Senior NCOs and Officers who are warriors for real, real leaders who take care of their men and earn respect.
__________________
"Look Sharp, Act Sharp, Be Sharp - But don't cut yourself!"
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 12 November 2019, 11:19
Gray Rhyno's Avatar
Gray Rhyno Gray Rhyno is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NoVa
Posts: 10,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
There are plenty of Officers in the Army like that as well......as there are really good Officers as well in both the Marines and Army. Always be some Officers who are dicks, and try to be hard asses at the expense of their troops, or thrown their troops under the bus or kiss ass in order to move up in rank.

And then there are some really good officers, and senior NCOs as well, who complete change one they get that Full Bird, Star or CSM tanking - and forget their roots.

And then you have the Senior NCOs and Officers who are warriors for real, real leaders who take care of their men and earn respect.
Thank you. There are shitheads and good men everywhere. Just as the Iowa National Guard's 333rd Heavy Quartermaster Truck Company in Ottumwa has some dudes I'd go to war with any day of the week, I'm sure there are some total douche bags at Delta Force or SEAL Team Six.

I wouldn't reject an entire service because of a TV show. I mean The Unit made the Army look like a bag of dicks and SEAL Team isn't any better.
__________________
"The most HSLD stuff ever taught was the basics. So-called 'advanced training' is often no more than the very fluid and expert application of those basic skills." - SOTB
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 12 November 2019, 11:28
leopardprey's Avatar
leopardprey leopardprey is online now
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 15,146
Some of the best soldiers I ever met/worked with were from the North Dakota National Guard that got assigned to us at Najaf, Iraq to assist in security operations at remote UXO sites.
__________________
"Look Sharp, Act Sharp, Be Sharp - But don't cut yourself!"
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 12 November 2019, 13:49
bobofthedesert's Avatar
bobofthedesert bobofthedesert is offline
RIP SOTB, Cass, Hognose
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Middle of the Mojave
Posts: 4,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post
I wouldn't reject an entire service because of a TV show. I mean The Unit made the Army look like a bag of dicks and SEAL Team isn't any better.
We didn't, 99% of it was the number of former Marines who declined to continue to play the game the USMC way and re-enlisting another branch. If a person didn't see that as a HUGE indicator I would suspect their judgement in sizing things up is somewhat deficient. When a retired USMC Sgt/Maj tells you you're right and he should have done the same but didn't make the jump because at the end of his first enlistment he already had a family to consider and was moving up, that's a man whose opinion I am going to take very seriously. Captain Tone Deaf was just a candle on the cake.
__________________
RIP Stevie D. 1964-2012
U.S. Army Veteran of OIF 2003
"Gone But Never Forgotten"

"Let us return to old times and that will be progress." - Verdi
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 12 November 2019, 14:00
bobofthedesert's Avatar
bobofthedesert bobofthedesert is offline
RIP SOTB, Cass, Hognose
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Middle of the Mojave
Posts: 4,278
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
There are plenty of Officers in the Army like that as well......as there are really good Officers as well in both the Marines and Army. Always be some Officers who are dicks, and try to be hard asses at the expense of their troops, or thrown their troops under the bus or kiss ass in order to move up in rank.
The Vietnam era guys had a solution for that.....although I have a sneaking suspicion they didn't invent the concept. I really enjoyed serving with/under those guys. They were my hero's as a kid and to grow up to enlist and have them teach me what they knew was awesome. As much attitude and outlook as anything else. I'll never forget them, I still see their faces 40 years later like it was yesterday, even though I know they are now old men, just like some are starting to accuse me of being.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
And then you have the Senior NCOs and Officers who are warriors for real, real leaders who take care of their men and earn respect.
I never got beyond Sp/4, and didn't really care to, but I learned that shit about taking care of your people, and I try to live it.
__________________
RIP Stevie D. 1964-2012
U.S. Army Veteran of OIF 2003
"Gone But Never Forgotten"

"Let us return to old times and that will be progress." - Verdi
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 12 November 2019, 17:07
Polypro's Avatar
Polypro Polypro is offline
BTDT
 
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: A Noisy Bar In Avalon
Posts: 14,508
I don't mind spending very minimal time on Iron Sights, just so you know how to use them if your Optic goes down - but fuck that 3 focal plane, 15 MOA sight post BS - some type of optic is where it's at. But zero Iron Sight use?
__________________
"The eight year assault, on your 2nd Amendment rights, is over!"
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 13:19.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
© SOCNET 1996-2018