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  #21  
Old 24 October 2017, 07:41
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Very well built from what I understand. But, it's a hybrid (read proprietary) platform. A mashup of AR10 & AR15 parts. IMHO, kinda defeats one of the primary design characteristics of the 458. (barrel & bolt is all that's needs to convert an AR15 platform)

Last edited by bigsapper; 24 October 2017 at 07:42. Reason: clarification.
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  #22  
Old 24 October 2017, 07:47
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Originally Posted by bigsapper View Post
Very well built from what I understand. But, it's a hybrid (read proprietary) platform. A mashup of AR10 & AR15 parts. IMHO, kinda defeats one of the primary design characteristics of the 458. (barrel & bolt is all that's needs to convert an AR15 platform)
And an upper receiver with a larger ejection port.

When ordering my upper from RRA, I learned they are running a 20% off sale which includes all 458 uppers. The Tactical upper is normally $945 and the sale knocks it to $750.
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  #23  
Old 25 October 2017, 15:24
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And today I learned that Indiana legsilature and DNR fucked up in a big way and outlawed all rifles (Yes, even the previously approved to include my newly order .458) on public land. They issued a statement this past Friday that all rifles are permitted only on private land. No public land rifle hunting at all.

LINK

If you hadn’t noticed, there was a pretty big screw-up in this year’s printed hunting regulations and Indiana’s Conservation Officers are left holding the bag.

It happened because there is a new state law regarding rifle hunting for deer. The road to arriving at the rifle law is another story in itself but suffice it to say that the original passed in 2015 was lacking in several regards. In an effort to fix those shortcomings, the legislature passed a new rifle law this spring, HB1415, that addressed most of those problems.

However, apparently unintentionally, it also outlawed all rifles for deer hunting on public land. This was a significant change because previously, “pistol caliber rifles” (PCR) were legal on public land and had been for several years.

Essentially, a PCR is a rifle that uses a smaller cartridge that is commonly considered a handgun round, such as the .357 Magnum or .44 Magnums. When first legalized a few years ago, many hunters went out and purchased such rifles for deer hunting.

The problem arose because none of the people responsible for preparing and disseminating the printed and online hunting regulations realized that the new law forbids ALL rifles on public land. That’s why every printed copy of the 2017-2018 Indiana Hunting Regulations is wrong in that regard (online regulations were changed Friday).

But that’s only part of the story.

Once this conflict was realized far too late, the DNR had a problem on its hands. So, following accepted media best-practices and common sense, they admitted their mistake, made a public apology and promised to do better next time.

HA!

That’s exactly what didn’t happen.

What did happen, I’ve heard from multiple sources, was that this reasonable course of action was chosen by senior DNR leadership…at least until forces outside the agency heard of the “crisis” plan and then proceeded to have a proverbial litter of kittens. Things were quickly changed to reflect a “Nothing to see here”-attitude.

It started with a press release quietly sent out by the Division of Communication. As a well-traveled media professional with considerable government experience, I would characterize it as a “stealth” release.

The email, which came out at 5:11 p.m. on Thursday evening (press releases from the Division of Communication almost never come out after 4:00pm and on average arrive mid-mornings; a quick check through several dozen recent releases showed the latest at 2:10 p.m.), bore the eye-catching subject line of “News Release.”

This almost never happens as the subject line in every DNR news release is a specific headline that allows journalists such as Your Humble Correspondent to triage the subject matter quickly while browsing through the in-box. That’s why we initially missed the news release as it blended in with all the other assorted media flotsam we receive on a daily basis. One can assume that was intentional.

Finally, the actual headline on the press release was “Important Corrections to the Indiana Hunting and Trapping Guide.” The second paragraph mentioned the rifle law, followed by a notice that you can only bag one black duck instead of two.

In other words, a major change that will affect many hunters was given nearly equal weight to a minor mistake regarding one black duck in your game pouch.

Though the DNR’s Division of Communications and Division of Fish and Wildlife are probably still arguing who’s fault it was in the first place, they should own it; of course, maybe they did but those outside sources overruled because it might make somebody look bad. Yet, by trying to obfuscate and redirect criticism while playing the “CYA” game, the credibility of the entire DNR is now in question.

And, guess who is going to face the wrath of enraged citizens? Indiana’s Conservation Officers, but they aren’t allowed to even discuss the predicament.

Our men and women in green will undoubtedly face angry hunters in the field who THOUGHT they were complying with the law. While ignorance is no excuse for lawbreaking, there is a reasonable expectation that official DNR publications are a correct reflection of those laws. And again, the people who will have to deal with that conflict, up close and personal, are Indiana’s conservation officers.

And they have to be quiet.

The DNR’s Division of Law Enforcement Public Information Officers (the ‘spokespersons’ for Indiana’s conservation officers) are forbidden from talking about this mistaken. According to multiple DNR officers I’ve spoken with, they have been given a canned written response that may be given to individual hunters but all other inquiries must go to the DNR’s Division of Communication, which only works normal government hours.

That means we don’t have any comment from the Division of Communication because, as this story is being written, there is no one in the office.

In the End

In the end, this was a mistake and mistakes happen. However, there is an old saying in journalism that applies here: “The cover-up is always worse than the original sin.”

While this doesn’t rise to the level of Watergate, we should expect better handling of inevitable foul-balls.

Face it, DNR, you screwed up. But, since MOST folks are reasonable, they’d understand if you’d simply say “My Bad” and tried harder to prevent it from happening again. Now we are left wondering what to believe while also intuitively knowing that covering somebody’s (or the collective) a$$ is more important than being straight with Indiana’s outdoor community.

This episode will not end up being remembered as a significant “typo” but rather a text-book example of how not to handle a medium-sized media crisis.

However, in the end and above everything else, we should take away one important thing regarding this situation: its two black ducks, not one.

That is, assuming the press release was correct.
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  #24  
Old 25 October 2017, 15:35
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DNR = Indiana Dept of Natural Resources.... check.
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  #25  
Old 26 October 2017, 06:00
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Well, it's not like it's carved in stone. Fire a bunch of worthless InDNR pogues who conveniently skylined themselves as assclowns and get the idiots in Indy to fix the law by changing it back.

It's not like you're in IL where you'd have to grease a bunch of politicians to actually do their jobs. S/F....Ken M
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  #26  
Old 26 October 2017, 07:31
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It'll probably be fixed for next year but it's pretty shitty for this year.
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  #27  
Old 26 October 2017, 11:05
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Just MHO but I think if I was a Conservation guy I would not be screwing with people out in the woods who have guns and are otherwise in compliance over a BS rule that will be changed back to what it was at the earliest opportunity. I certainly would not attempt to disarm and cuff anyone over this.
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  #28  
Old 26 October 2017, 11:54
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That is their job and they daily deal with this. More than likely they would educate and offer a warning. If there are other infractions , then they probably would add this to those.

But yes that is why conservation law enforcement officers have more deadly encounters per capita than any other law enforcement field. Most of the time dealing with armed violators. Vehicle assaults on conservation officers is also very high.

Just like you cannot have more than ten rifle cartridges combined on your person or in the rifle. Not like they are going to be searching people's pockets and clothes or magazines to see if they have 10-15 bullets.

Most of the conservation officers I have talked to in Indiana are pretty upset over the whole caliber issue, as they were not consulted.

Some of it makes no sense like have mentioned before. I can hunt with a .300 win mag or 7.62 but cannot use 45-70. I can go out and hunt, on private land with an ak47, but cannot use a Henry lever action in 45-70.


Personally I usually only hunt on private land, and very fortune that I have several large areas to hunt owned by family and friends. Public areas are like war zones during firearms season, no thanks. Not going there unless in a orange jump suit with body armor, k pots, and chest seals, quick clot And tourniquets ready ! Only go to public land if doing a special lottery draw hunt.... and last two of those I did were traditional muzzle loader only.

Personally I think Indiana should open it up to several rifle calibers, but only allow single shot, bolt action and lever action rifles. No semi auto allowed.
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Last edited by leopardprey; 26 October 2017 at 12:03.
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  #29  
Old 26 October 2017, 12:51
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Semi-auto shotguns are legal.

I know there are idiots in the woods but I don't want to try to control behavior through restrictive regulation. That is punishing the responsible for the anticipated actions of the irresponsible.
I think rifle calibers should be permitted. I regard all my weapons as multi-use and would not want to have to buy a dedicated deer gun if I didn't have one that met those requirements.

Given the opportunity, I 'd love to load up some 168gr Sierra Game Kings and hunt with my Garand. Last year, when .30 Carbine was legal on private property, my 10 year old took a doe with it (loaded with Sierra Pro Hunter JSP bullets). I already had the weapon and my son was comfortable and competent with it. It is easier for him to shoot than the 20 gauge making a clean ethical kill more probable.
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  #30  
Old 8 November 2017, 13:43
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And the DNR distributed a correction that states that all rifle permitted on public land in previous years are permissible again.

Now that I have the upper in hand as well as the dies and loading components, I should work up a few loads this weekend.
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  #31  
Old 8 November 2017, 14:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Streck-Fu View Post
I should work up a few loads this weekend.
Using the Barnes 300 gr TTSX or TacTX (same bullet, different boxes and marketing) with Norma 200, I've had pretty good results. Usually about 1.5" at 100 yards with a 1-4x scope from the bench. It knocks the dust off of a hog! I started with 34.5gr, and worked up a bit and down a bit. Not much difference in accuracy from my RRA upper. I think I do 36 grains even, but I'd have to look.

Load data here: http://www.teppojutsu.com/downloads/...d_300_ttsx.pdf

*all reloading data due diligence warnings apply
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  #32  
Old 8 November 2017, 14:22
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That really looks like a good powder choice. Solid velocity without compressing the charge.

I already have some H110 and am looking into loads using it as a starting point.
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  #33  
Old 8 November 2017, 14:26
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H110 is a great all around powder, but it is about as easy to find around here as pickled unicorn farts. I found the Norma on the shelf in an 8 lb can and went with it.

You won't be disappointed with the H110.
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  #34  
Old 9 November 2017, 01:42
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Just FYI, H110 and Win 296 are the same powder, there's no more difference than you'd find with lot to lot variation.

I'm wondering if I'm in the twilight zone when someone tells me they can't find H110, but 8lb kegs of Norma powders are on the shelf. S/F....Ken M
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  #35  
Old 9 November 2017, 09:03
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I load M1 carbine with H110 so hope it works well enough. I prefer to consolidate as much as possible. I buy 4198 in 8lb containers because I load it in .223, 30-06, and 7.5x55 Swiss and is a candidate for 7x57.
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  #36  
Old 9 November 2017, 15:26
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Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
Just FYI, H110 and Win 296 are the same powder, there's no more difference than you'd find with lot to lot variation.

I'm wondering if I'm in the twilight zone when someone tells me they can't find H110, but 8lb kegs of Norma powders are on the shelf. S/F....Ken M
Good to know on the Win296, thank you for the info!
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  #37  
Old 16 November 2017, 14:39
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458 build so far. A new stock and grip as well as an ambi selector (I shoot rifles shouthpaw).

In a picture with a Garand from the M1A Scout thread.
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  #38  
Old 16 November 2017, 15:14
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I am thinking of buying a 458 upper just to add to my collection of AR-caliber soup.
...how does it do with standard M4 magazines?
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  #39  
Old 16 November 2017, 15:29
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No issues, except with MAGPUL mags, which for some reason don't like to do the .458 round.

Or so I understand.
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  #40  
Old 16 November 2017, 15:36
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If I go through with the purchase, I plan on using some old HK steel M4 magazines with the 458 and just treating them as 458 only mags. I have a handful of tan magpul bullet holders that I use for 300 BLK and they are now strictly 300 mags.
Keeping the magazines segregated should prevent me from ever having to worry about mixing things up.
The next thing is to peruse the local big-box sporting goods stores to see how much 458 ammo costs.
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