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Old 17 January 2018, 15:38
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Franklin Armory Cheats the NFA?

So apparently Franklin Armory has come out with a new "firearm" that is not a rifle, nor is it a pistol. They (Franklin Armory) say that because they manufacture the firearm with their binary trigger, it technically is not classified as a rifle ---- therefore the SBR category would not and does not apply to it's 11.5" barrel and Magpul stock. The 'one trigger pull = one round fired' definition of a rifle in the NFA is circumvented by having a trigger that fires upon pull AND again upon release. FA says they have the ATF determination letter and all.

Quote:
Having already received approval as a non-rifle from the Chief of the Firearms Technology Division, Reformation® will be shipping without any onerous NFA paperwork required.
Franklin Armory® President, Jay Jacobson, noted, “The patent pending technology employed in Reformation® will create a whole new market segment that will not require NFA approval.”


I really REALLY hope this is a thing. I am not 'excited' about this product as an item, but I am hopeful that perhaps it does lead to a whole new way of being able to get around the BS NFA garbage. I know a lot of guys here attend SHOT --- perhaps one could swing by their booth and take a look-see at the hype and confirm. Hopefully this technique can also have applications in the 80% world as well.


http://soldiersystems.net/2018/01/11...-no-tax-stamp/
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Old 17 January 2018, 15:54
bobmueller bobmueller is offline
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Yeah, but that approval is just a letter that can be easily rescinded or changed. Isn't that what's trying to happen with bump-fires?
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Old 17 January 2018, 16:11
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Yes that is most definitely true and one of the first things I was thinking of. That this will be very quickly reinterpreted once the political winds start shifting another direction. I honestly cannot understand why the Tech branch made the decision they did, although I am glad that they have ---- even if temporarily. I can almost see it trivial for a ATF to rescind it's decision citing "what a firearm trigger mechanism does AFTER it is pulled once, firing a single round, is irrespective of the fact that it has met the criteria for being a rifle and is therefore considered as such". Or some derivation thereof.

Quote:
A rifle is a firearm designed to be fired from the shoulder and designed to use the energy of an explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled barrel for each single pull of the trigger. https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/at...ter-2/download
BUT, there is a slim hope that this ruling will stand. I know that this bumpfire nonsense is an attempt to actually start regulating accessories that regulate rate of semi auto fire and therefore could render this binary trigger "loophole" moot.......but that is why I'm hoping against hope that POTUS comes in and tells these dickbags to knock it off and drop it like they did when they tried to list green-tip as armor-piercing.
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Old 17 January 2018, 16:38
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So, if that is true and I have a 10.5" upper...All I need to do is put it on a lower with a binary trigger installed and it is now completely legal without the NFA bullshit?
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Old 17 January 2018, 17:31
NoChai NoChai is offline
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Correct me if I'm wrong BUT wouldn't it only fit the loophole if it's in binary mode? To click it into semi would still make it an SBR, right? If that's correct, would you need a "binary only" rifle (scary thought if you only want to put 1 round downrange) to fit within the regs?
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Old 17 January 2018, 17:45
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
So, if that is true and I have a 10.5" upper...All I need to do is put it on a lower with a binary trigger installed and it is now completely legal without the NFA bullshit?
If I'm following the "logic" correctly, no that wouldn't work. It has to be manufactured with a binary from the very beginning. It can never exist as anything else. Otherwise that would be considered "reclassifying an existing rifle".

In a similar vein, I believe removing the binary trigger from this 'firearm' and inserting a regular AR15 trigger would also be a no-go as that would then be reclassifying the 'firearm' into a rifle (a rifle with a barrel less than 16" and into NFA territory).

I don't know if it's JUST the binary trigger alone that creates the loophole ---- or if it's the binary trigger in addition to the "patent pending" tech that truly classifies it apart from a rifle. Otherwise, the little hamster in my brain thinks that maybe if you have a binary trigger and install it in an 80% lower that you manufacture ---- that the resulting weapon could fall under the same classification as what Franklin Armory is doing here.

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong BUT wouldn't it only fit the loophole if it's in binary mode? To click it into semi would still make it an SBR, right? If that's correct, would you need a "binary only" rifle (scary thought if you only want to put 1 round downrange) to fit within the regs?
I do not believe so.....I think the mechanism has the ability to function as a binary trigger (pull, shot, release, shot) and that is the critical distinction. But this is a very surprising ruling out of the ATF, so I really don't know what exactly is in their minds. Perhaps when the ATF determination letter drops we will be able to get a better idea of what their thought process was when they said this wasn't a rifle.
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Old 17 January 2018, 17:54
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I think it's simply that it doesn't fit their own definition of a rifle. They will probably have to change that definition now and reclassify the weapon.
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Old 17 January 2018, 18:00
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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I believe the National Firearms Act is the doc that defines exactly what a rifle is. Therefore, ATF can't touch it (just like they cannot touch the $200 price of a stamp) --- only Congress could change the definition.

I could, however, (without seeing the determination letter or the internals of the weapon) see courts/ATF trying to invoke the "readily convertible" legal litmus test and screw with it that way if they wished.
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Old 17 January 2018, 18:39
NoChai NoChai is offline
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Interesting indeed. Thanks for the response DD. I'll be keeping an eye on this. It does seem that it would need to originally be created as a "Binary weapon" to avoid the rifle thing, much like AR pistols now. As for the readily convertible part, I'm sure there's an easy answer to that if that does become the issue. Just like muzzle devices, pin and weld that sucker in there and call it good.
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Old 17 January 2018, 18:40
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Ah, it's 26 U.S. Code § 5845 (c) that defines what a rifle is. So I do not believe the ATF can change that. Congress would have to step in and amend that definition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NoChai View Post
As for the readily convertible part, I'm sure there's an easy answer to that if that does become the issue. Just like muzzle devices, pin and weld that sucker in there and call it good.
Now that is clever. Welding a trigger to the lower receiver might be a thing. I'm not a welder, but is welding aluminum to steel possible?? Or maybe that's the 'patented tech' they're talking about.....or maybe they just weld an aluminum pin to the aluminum receiver to permanently 'trap' the trigger in the lower. Interesting nonetheless.

Last edited by DirtyDog0311; 17 January 2018 at 18:46.
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Old 17 January 2018, 20:30
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I'd be inclined to buy one out of spite.
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Old 17 January 2018, 20:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
I'd be inclined to buy one out of spite.
A man after me own heart. I think half of what I do in life is just purely out of fucking spite....LOL
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Old 17 January 2018, 22:17
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A man after me own heart. I think half of what I do in life is just purely out of fucking spite....LOL
ATF agent at the gym fucking hates me

"Hey bro check out this sling I just bought for my "pistol" that I can now shoulder"
"Fuck you Bean"
This might cause his head to explode.

As soon as anyone on here figures out if we can take a stripped/ 80% lower and throw in a binary trigger, please post the link. I feel like that would be with in the "sprit of the law". But this is the ATF....
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Old 17 January 2018, 23:01
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^be sure to open up your gym bag and show him your bump stock and jar of tannerite. Then offer him a Cuban cigar and a swig of your homemade whisky.
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Old 17 January 2018, 23:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
So, if that is true and I have a 10.5" upper...All I need to do is put it on a lower with a binary trigger installed and it is now completely legal without the NFA bullshit?
Sharky, I do not know what you know about AR's, so please forgive my ignorance, but what is a "binary trigger"?

You say binary I think 0101010.
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Old 18 January 2018, 01:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Expatmedic View Post
Sharky, I do not know what you know about AR's, so please forgive my ignorance, but what is a "binary trigger"?

You say binary I think 0101010.
A binary trigger will fire both on trigger pull and trigger reset.
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Old 18 January 2018, 01:26
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The way executive agencies get around laws they can't change by themselves is to redefine the words in those laws. If the weapon fires once when you squeeze the trigger and again when you release it, they will simply redefine squeezing the trigger to include the releasing part. At that point it becomes a weapon that fires two round bursts and will be treated just like the ones that fire three round bursts. It looks like a short lived money pit.
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Old 18 January 2018, 05:45
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First, we kill all the lawyers....

Yeah, I know there's a few good ones, but 98% of lawyers give the other 2% a bad reputation. There's something intrinsically dishonest about the inability to concede any objective reality.

Anyhow, you can't weld aluminum to steel; this is what brazing is for. You can also weld the steel part into the aluminum part but everything would have to be pretty rigidly fixtured so it doesn't move all around when you're welding. Welding pumps a lot of heat into the parts and things move about a lot. Aluminum alloys melt at around 1100F, steels at about 2500F, so you can see why joining dissimilar metals doesn't work here. S/F....Ken M
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Old 18 January 2018, 08:06
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I like tempted to buy one lol.

Then you have this.

https://youtu.be/ieUFc6eU558
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Old 18 January 2018, 09:51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
"Fuck you Bean"
This might cause his head to explode.
Which is why most law abiding citizen gun owners hate the ATF.
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