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  #21  
Old 18 January 2018, 10:07
Azatty Azatty is offline
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Mmmmmkay...

My guess is that it's either going to be classified as a machine gun or AOW. Either definition is potentially broad enough to fit it.
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  #22  
Old 18 January 2018, 10:11
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Get them while you can because much like drug "cookers", they are most likely already moving forward to get it changed. At least you may be able to be "grandfathered" in....
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  #23  
Old 18 January 2018, 10:15
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I get the everybody wants to get a fuck off in with the ATF. I'm down with that.

However, what's the advantage of this binary trigger system? I mean yeah, I can rip thru a 30 rounder twice as fast as with semi, but other than that, what's the attraction. Not being a smartass, I just don't get it.
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  #24  
Old 18 January 2018, 10:19
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An unsafe weapon made to skirt to intentionally skirt the definitions in a dumbass law is still an unsafe weapon.
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  #25  
Old 18 January 2018, 10:49
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Originally Posted by Gsniper View Post
I get the everybody wants to get a fuck off in with the ATF. I'm down with that.

However, what's the advantage of this binary trigger system? I mean yeah, I can rip thru a 30 rounder twice as fast as with semi, but other than that, what's the attraction. Not being a smartass, I just don't get it.
Because 'Merica!
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  #26  
Old 18 January 2018, 10:56
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I think the main attraction is that it allows an SBR clone without the onerous nonsense associated with the NFA. The binary feature is a novelty as far as I am concerned. Being able to perform a mag dump at double the speed of a semi-only 'rifle' is just a range gimmick. Much like the auto/burst capability of mil rifles, I doubt it would be used very much (if at all) by serious professionals. I 'assume' the semi selection would be used mostly by people. The usefulness of the third position primarily being to simply to allow short barrels without govt interference and hassles.

Personally, I don't think this decision will last very long (I sincerely hope I'm wrong about that). I'm honestly shocked the ATF interpreted this the way they did. The definition of 'trigger pull' is being taken to such an extreme in this case. I imagine it will only be a short matter of time before 'trigger pull' (since they cannot change the wording of the law) is, ahem, "clarified" to mean a single pull and release of a trigger mechanism. The interpretation and absolute hair-splitting minutiae of a legal definition that the binary systems exploits still confounds me. But if the ATF is so fucking stupid as to say a shoestring is a machinegun, then they can be stupid in the favor of the people as well.

IIRC, This particular companies binary trigger system has the option of being able to be pulled, weapon put on safe, and then released without discharging the round.

IMO, after reading the definition of machine gun again, I don't think they can call it a machine gun:

Quote:
The term “machinegun” means any weapon which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily restored to shoot, automatically more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger. The term shall also include the frame or receiver of any such weapon, any part designed and intended solely and exclusively, or combination of parts designed and intended, for use in converting a weapon into a machinegun, and any combination of parts from which a machinegun can be assembled if such parts are in the possession or under the control of a person.
I think the bolded is the part regulators would have a problem with. However, again, they could 'reinterpret' or clarify the term 'single function' to mean the entire cycle of action within a trigger mechanism itself --- trigger pull, release of hammer, round being fired, trigger reset, trigger release --- being defined as ONE functioning of a trigger.

It's interesting to note that machine gun is not a rifle ---- and therefore if you have a machine gun, barrel length is a non-issue. A 10.5" full auto HK416 would only have 1 tax stamp (if it was possible to own as civilian).

I'm interested in reading the determination letter.
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  #27  
Old 18 January 2018, 11:08
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Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
I think the main attraction is that it allows an SBR clone without the onerous nonsense associated with the NFA...
Perhaps, but there is little purpose to SBRs, anyway. Why do I have SBRs? Because I can, and I am willing to jump through the NFA hoops to get them.

One can accomplish the same thing through the "pistol stabilizing brace" feature without having an inherently unsafe weapon.

Quote:
I 'assume' the semi selection would be used mostly by people. The usefulness of the third position primarily being to simply to allow short barrels without govt interference and hassles...I'm interested in reading the determination letter.
Think about that...I also would have to read the determination letter, but if the weapon has a "semi" capability at all, it would be a rifle. If Franklin Armory is skirting NFA the way we think they are, it would have to only be capable of binary fire.
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  #28  
Old 18 January 2018, 11:34
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I agree, that's just common sense, but apparently the ATF disagrees somehow. On the promo pic, the weapon clearly has 3 positions indicated on the selector switch: Safe, Semi, Binary.

I think perhaps it's based on what the item is designed to do, not what it can do. But that's contradictory to a machine gun case I read about (defective Oly Arms SA-rifle being declared a machine gun) --- but a rifle and a machine gun are different beasts, legally, so perhaps that is the critical element in that case. This all sounds like a fucking lawyer fight involving administrative procedure and bureaucratic hand-wringing rather than anything even remotely resembling common sense the majority of common folks are used to employing. Most of the time this type of word wrangling is used against people, but this one time apparently it's being used against the govt regulators. So good for that at least (while it lasts). I honestly just wished they'd get rid of the entire NFA already, but in the meantime........

I have SBRs and braced 'pistols'. I would rather have an SBR as my beater truck gun, versus the 'pistol' serving that role currently. I think there is a market for an "SBR" that can function in semi.......and also have the ability to double the rate of fire if, for whatever reason, you feel the need to.
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  #29  
Old 18 January 2018, 12:21
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Which is why most law abiding citizen gun owners hate the ATF.
In all fairness, I fuck with him pretty bad and he's a good sport about.
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  #30  
Old 18 January 2018, 13:07
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Outfoxing the NFA is one of the better uses for lawyers. Looks cool and I hope it works out.
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  #31  
Old 18 January 2018, 13:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
An unsafe weapon made to intentionally skirt the definitions in a dumbass law is still an unsafe weapon.
Unarguable wisdom.
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  #32  
Old 18 January 2018, 20:32
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I have no use for this thing, but I fully endorse the "because fuck you!" rational WRT the ATF.

SBR's have their uses, but I find FA for anything other than a belt fed, tripod mounted MG to be pretty worthless. S/F.....Ken M
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  #33  
Old 19 January 2018, 08:37
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Outfoxing the NFA is one of the better uses for lawyers. Looks cool and I hope it works out.
So do I, like to see the ATF defunded or disbanded.
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  #34  
Old 23 January 2018, 19:48
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So...apparently it has no rifling.

From Soldier Systems Daily:

Quote:
So, what allows it to defy NFA classification, despite its 11.5″ barrel and collapsible stock? It’s the barrel. Specifically, the Reformation line will feature Franklin’s NRS Barrel Technology. NRS, which stands for “Not a Rifle or Shotgun”, is a barrel with straight cut lands and grooves that retains a standard chamber. Because the barrel doesn’t impart spin on the projectile, the ATF decreed it doesn’t meet the definition of rifling, and as such the Reformation can’t be classified as a rifle or shotgun, short-barred or otherwise, only a ‘firearm’.
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  #35  
Old 23 January 2018, 20:07
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MSRP?
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  #36  
Old 23 January 2018, 20:11
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MSRP?
Dunno yet, but their weapons aren't bargain-priced. Guessing it will run close to $2K.
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  #37  
Old 23 January 2018, 20:22
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Dunno yet, but their weapons aren't bargain-priced. Guessing it will run close to $2K.
Checked their site you are not joking. Hope a reach around is included.
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  #38  
Old 23 January 2018, 20:53
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I couldn't be less interested in this.
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  #39  
Old 23 January 2018, 21:02
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2K? Screw that. Might as well pay your $200 stamp on a $600 dollar AR. Or just get your pistol "brace".
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  #40  
Old 23 January 2018, 21:39
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OK, SHOT Show report:

It's rifling is not rifling. Therefore not a rifle. The lands and groove are straight, not spiraled. They claim 4" at 100m with 55grn. They are also looking at fin stabilized (had them there at the show) projectiles/loading Franklin Armory ammo. Think sub miniature mortar round looking thing.

Personally if I feel the need for something like that I'd be having the "pistol" with arm brace.

Only thing I can see gained from it is interstate travel without having to send paperwork to ATF 30 days in advance if you took an SBR with you.
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