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  #101  
Old 21 March 2017, 10:21
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Originally Posted by 8654maine View Post
So are people against capital punishment or just the current system?
If the current system is corrupt/broken then one has to be against capital punishment, since it only exists in the current system.

Sure, if there was some absolute fool-proof way to prove guilt or innocence I probably* wouldn't care if the state executed people (though it is interesting that as much as people rail against government incompetence, politicians, money in the system, corruption, and a government taking too much control - when it comes to the death penalty and the state executing a citizen, people shrug it off). But how do we get to fool-proof? How do we get away from lazy defense attorneys, corrupt prosecutions, lying witnesses, etc? We can't.

Sure if someone confesses, great. I don't care at that point.

*I say probably because part of me still doesn't think that a state should have that much power over a populace.

While DNA evidence is great, the system for exonerating people is completely overwhelmed at the moment. The fact that there are innocent peoplesitting in prison, their lives taken from them, when they didn't do what they are accused of, doesn't sit well with me. Do I know how to fix it? No. But while the system is broken we can do one thing absolutely - ensure that the government doesn't wrongly execute someone. Maybe they stay in prison for life and die there, but the government won't have put someone into a system meant to provide justice, and then killed them anyway. We can do that by just ending the death penalty.
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  #102  
Old 21 March 2017, 10:51
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Originally Posted by KidA View Post

Yes innocents are killed during war, but that's by "accident", not intent, and if innocents are killed during war and it can be shown it was deliberate or through gross negligence, then those responsible can be tried for crimes.
So why can't this apply to the DP as well. Many of the innocents who got convictions were screwed by gross negligence or outright douchebaggery by prosecutors, defense attorney's, judges, etc.. Go after those guys with criminal charges and maybe the system improves a bit?

That's my point, really, seems like a lot of folks would rather dump the DP process because of procedural issues rather than actually fixing the things that are broken.
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  #103  
Old 21 March 2017, 10:56
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War and the death penalty can't possibly be compared in any logical universe.

Ditto to what 8654maine said.
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  #104  
Old 21 March 2017, 10:56
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That's my point, really, seems like a lot of folks would rather dump the DP process because of procedural issues rather than actually fixing the things that are broken.
I think as I got older I stopped seeing the point. It isn't a deterrent because we have hundreds of people on death row who killed people.

Keeping them in a box away from everyone else solves the same problem as executing them: they don't kill anyone anymore.

So it really seems like it's just a form of punishment - and if that's the case, hell why not bring out some other kinds of punishment that save tons of money - like cutting off hands for stealing, or blinding someone for blinding someone, or things of that nature? It's a huge step down from dealing death, isn't it?
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  #105  
Old 21 March 2017, 11:03
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So it really seems like it's just a form of punishment - and if that's the case, hell why not bring out some other kinds of punishment that save tons of money - like cutting off hands for stealing, or blinding someone for blinding someone, or things of that nature? It's a huge step down from dealing death, isn't it?
Yeah, that's a good point. Why don't we do that? I think mainly because those are either religious punishments or outright acts of vengeance, neither of which I think the State should be involved in.

The death penalty I see as more of taking out the trash, some people just don't deserve oxygen. The system that administers it needs work, but I'd rather fix the system than give a pass to serial killers and the like.
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  #106  
Old 21 March 2017, 11:56
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Bring back corporal punishment, a few lumps upside the head would greatly reduce those who think crime is cool.
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  #107  
Old 21 March 2017, 12:19
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Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
I accept that I'm ignorant about a lot of things, can you elaborate? I personally demand, to what little extent that matters, that any/all criminal cases where you're potentially taking a man's freedom and money should be held to the highest standards of integrity. I fully understand that the judicial system is full of less than ideal humans, but I find it conceptually bullshit to propose that we should only really hold these people accountable to high standards when we're going to execute someone.

Perhaps I'm missing something, I'm in Cook county, this judicial system might as well be the 3rd world. S/F....Ken M
You're missing a lot. Every state, including the most active DP states, recognize that DP cases cost more. Thus, they authorize greater funding. The questions is why? Because a failure to provide adequate resources will ensure the defendant won't be executed because appellate courts will likely find an ineffective assistance of counsel (IAC) claim. Thus if you actually want to execute somebody you're going to have to pay. Thats not a reflection on how I personally feel about the DP, just a fact.

Now I could write a book on this subject as I have many years of professional experience dealing with this issue up close and personal. I've worked on numerous cases, testified in a number, and taught a DP seminar at a university for 5-years. But I won't because it's pointless as I won't change opinions.
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  #108  
Old 21 March 2017, 14:42
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
You're missing a lot. Every state, including the most active DP states, recognize that DP cases cost more. Thus, they authorize greater funding. The questions is why? Because a failure to provide adequate resources will ensure the defendant won't be executed because appellate courts will likely find an ineffective assistance of counsel (IAC) claim. Thus if you actually want to execute somebody you're going to have to pay. Thats not a reflection on how I personally feel about the DP, just a fact.

Now I could write a book on this subject as I have many years of professional experience dealing with this issue up close and personal. I've worked on numerous cases, testified in a number, and taught a DP seminar at a university for 5-years. But I won't because it's pointless as I won't change opinions.
You'd be wrong. It is not pointless. It is worth it.

FOR ME, the biggest concern about the death penalty has been my uncertainty. For those who know me, I am a "black and white" person in a gray world.

I intensely dislike uncertainty and try to minimize it to an acceptable level.

The issue of the death penalty is one of those gray areas.

The reconciliation of ultimate justice without error is a noble cause.

If you have expert guidance, then it would be helpful for you to distill it here.

Otherwise, quitting before trying is pointless.
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  #109  
Old 21 March 2017, 20:31
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Originally Posted by 8654maine View Post
You'd be wrong. It is not pointless. It is worth it.

FOR ME, the biggest concern about the death penalty has been my uncertainty. For those who know me, I am a "black and white" person in a gray world.

I intensely dislike uncertainty and try to minimize it to an acceptable level.

The issue of the death penalty is one of those gray areas.

The reconciliation of ultimate justice without error is a noble cause.

If you have expert guidance, then it would be helpful for you to distill it here.

Otherwise, quitting before trying is pointless.
I haven't quit, just not on-line. Having an adequate discussion about the DP on-line is pointless because its not the right forum for the topic. Most folks don't read what you write, nor do they do any research beforehand. At most they'll google, find what supports their angle and ignore the rest. Then they fire from the hip with uninformed opinions. Simply put, I don't have the time or desire to engage in that pointless discussion. However, should you or anyone else for that matter find yourself in the Tampa area, hit me up with a PM and I'll be more than happy to buy the first couple of rounds and we can talk it up.
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  #110  
Old 21 March 2017, 22:13
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Now I could write a book on this subject as I have many years of professional experience dealing with this issue up close and personal. I've worked on numerous cases, testified in a number, and taught a DP seminar at a university for 5-years. But I won't because it's pointless as I won't change opinions.
You laid out your experience than you withdraw? I don't understand. If you have this experience you should share it. $0.02.
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  #111  
Old 21 March 2017, 22:23
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You laid out your experience than you withdraw? I don't understand. If you have this experience you should share it. $0.02.
Ok, what do you want to know? I'll answer specific questions, but, not whether I'm pro or con DP.
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  #112  
Old 21 March 2017, 23:02
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Ok, what do you want to know? I'll answer specific questions, but, not whether I'm pro or con DP.
What kind of testimony did you give? Did you do mitigation work? What is your academic background? Did you interview inmates on death row? What were you teaching at your seminar? Did you ever encounter homi detectives that were anti-death penalty? Don't be a tease.
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  #113  
Old 22 March 2017, 05:44
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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CJ, your decision is your own.

But if you have the expertise, it would be beneficial to share what you wish.

I know I'm not the only one who is not 100% certain.
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  #114  
Old 22 March 2017, 06:12
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Emotional subject for some. Not so much for me. There are just too many evil people that need euthanized in this country. Heinous crimes reported every day on the news. Just when I think I have seen about everything, some asshole comes up with another crime that just amazes me how sick and just plain evil some people are in this country. The system isn't perfect. Yes, there are probably innocent people in prison. But to be sentenced to death with all of our technology and forensic science...I don't think innocent folks are getting put to death.
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  #115  
Old 22 March 2017, 06:53
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There are many things for which governments are necessary, but there are many things that are not efficiently handled by governments via laws, bureaucracies, courtrooms, and lawyerly debates. Regardless of how a judge or lawyer feels about the DP in a case before them, none of them are likely to actually put the needle into the convict's arm, throw the switch on old sparky, put the literal rope around the convict's neck, or pull the trigger in the firing squad. They remove themselves from that so that they may make a more clear-headed decision. However, just as congresscritters or bureaucrats will impose upon combat troops rules of engagement so restrictive that they are practically suicidal and counterproductive, yet refuse to pick up a weapon or have their own sons pick one up, the end result is that what makes sense in the courtroom stops making sense outside of it where people actually live and die. In both combat and street crime, the real world is held hostage by the artificial constraints of the arbitrary decisions of people who will never personally ingest the consequences of the moralistic stances they fecklessly impose upon others. I don't know what the best solution is, but the system as currently constituted at all levels is so dysfunctional that it makes a mockery of the best intentions of both the founding fathers and all who would attempt to abide by the words of the Constitution.
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  #116  
Old 22 March 2017, 08:27
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Originally Posted by 1RiserSlip View Post
Emotional subject for some. Not so much for me. There are just too many evil people that need euthanized in this country. Heinous crimes reported every day on the news. Just when I think I have seen about everything, some asshole comes up with another crime that just amazes me how sick and just plain evil some people are in this country. The system isn't perfect. Yes, there are probably innocent people in prison. But to be sentenced to death with all of our technology and forensic science...I don't think innocent folks are getting put to death.
I tend to agree. It seems as if our justice system is skewed to ensure the innocent don't get punished, as it should be. But statistically speaking, some innocents will slip through, despite the design of the system. The rigorous appeals process is further designed to help weed out the innocents. It seems that nowadays, with the enhanced science and much better investigative techniques that far fewer innocents do slip through.

There are crimes committed that is commonly said that if the death penalty is ever appropriate, this is the case that warrants it. Such heinous perpetrators, when found guilty on solid scientific evidence, need to be eliminated. Not necessarily as a deterrent, but punishment fitting their crime. JMHO.
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  #117  
Old 22 March 2017, 13:21
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Originally Posted by 1RiserSlip View Post
Emotional subject for some. Not so much for me. There are just too many evil people that need euthanized in this country. Heinous crimes reported every day on the news. Just when I think I have seen about everything, some asshole comes up with another crime that just amazes me how sick and just plain evil some people are in this country. The system isn't perfect. Yes, there are probably innocent people in prison. But to be sentenced to death with all of our technology and forensic science...I don't think innocent folks are getting put to death.
On the personal level, I agree with you. I completely understand (and don't disagree with) the idea that certain people don't need to remain on this earth.

But I've seen so many questionable cases and cops and prosecutors that I know the system is broken. The public defender system is critically - lethally - overloaded in many states.

And yes, there's lots of tech and forensics and such today. But many of the people on DR were put there long before all of this sciencey stuff came into common usage.
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  #118  
Old 22 March 2017, 13:41
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Here you go.

What kind of testimony did you give? Last time was to get photographs of the crime scene location into evidence. Did you do mitigation work? My position was senior investigator and I was tasked with supervising the guilt phase, which means the investigation and forensic workup. I also searched, vetted, and coordinated the forensic experts. My office was very unique in that we had a larger budget then the prosecution. However to answer your question, when you do DP, you need to incorporate as much of the mitigation theme into the guilt phase, if possible. Thus, I worked closely with the mitigation specialist and often traveled to assist. What is your academic background? BS & MA in Criminal Justice and currently 3L with Litigation concentration Did you interview inmates on death row? Not on death row as all of our work was at the trial level. What were you teaching at your seminar? I was asked to develop the course. It was a seminar so I conducted a little bit of lecture, but, I also brought in multiple panels filled with practitioners and religious leaders to discuss and debate. Did you ever encounter homi detectives that were anti-death penalty? Yes Don't be a tease.
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  #119  
Old 22 March 2017, 15:21
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Here you go.
Thanks for posting. Interesting stuff, for sure.
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  #120  
Old 22 March 2017, 15:49
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Most folks don't read what you write
This may be true for most of the internet, but not here.

I'm sure I am not alone when I say that if you, as a SME, post your thoughts on this topic I will read every word and let it all sink in, think about it, and perhaps even come back to read it again the next day.

It's a rare opportunity to look inside a subject most folks simply don't get or only see the surface of. I'm grateful for this forum and the minds here that allow me and the rest of the audience to get to deeper levels of various topics like this.
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