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  #41  
Old 9 July 2018, 14:50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grog18b View Post
Personal
responsibility.
A-fucking-men.

There are some issues here, though. For example, our local academy budgets approximately 1100-1200 rounds of handgun ammunition to get someone familiarized and qualified to state day and night standards across two weeks of training. Following that, they do a judgment scenario with a role player and marking cartridges. They are told that they are receiving the best quality firearms instruction available in the law enforcement world, and a lot of them don't know better and believe it.

My agency takes new hires and puts them through a week of decent firearms work, plus a ton of scenario training. Very little of that is focused on small targets or what I consider acceptable hit zones, however. So the new hire from the academy has enough training to be proficient to a degree, but their consideration of proficiency is anywhere in the torso on a B-21 target (state qual standards). Continuing agency training consists of annual qualification (which is NOT training), as well as a handful of drills at a least common denominator level 2-3x a year, with 2-3 runs through each drill and move on to something else. Folks don't know what they're supposed to be learning or why. We offer proficiency ammunition each month, but less than 20% of the agency draws ammo on a given month. And when folks do, they all too often burn it standing flat footed at the 7 yard line shooting a large silhouette target and feel they've accomplished something.

What is my further point of frustration, is that firearm instructors aren't taught how to teach, and aren't taught how to conduct practice/training for skill development. The state firearms instructor course focuses on successfully running an academy class range to state standards. So the guy who is a general instructor and firearms instructor thinks running some "up" drills at torso targets while static means he's conducting solid training.

Most instructors don't know how to tailor training to meet individual needs for improvement. Most shooters don't know how to properly structure training for skill development and to identify deficiencies. Most cops think they are well trained.

In each of these situations, the key problem is people don't know what they don't know. This is where instructor development and cross-pollinating with other agencies and programs, as well as outside instruction is so important. The moment we think "we have all the answers" internally, we have failed institutionally and individually.
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  #42  
Old 9 July 2018, 15:43
dustyrebel dustyrebel is offline
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I just qualified at the range with several Officers and Deputies. This was not a difficult qual by any standard. What I was surprised at though, was that several people with 5-10 years experience failed the qual, and not by a little. Putting 35 of 50 rounds on target should not be remotely difficult. This was not a run and gun qual.
After to talking to a couple of these guys, they only shoot when they qualify. Practice ammo is supplied, though not in great volume. They just opt not to practice. Seems like a huge liability issue.
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  #43  
Old 9 July 2018, 15:51
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Originally Posted by dustyrebel View Post
They just opt not to practice.

These are the "Can't/Won't happen to me" crowd. Similar to a co-worker of mine who just yesterday told me he is okay with guns and has thought about CCW, but he feels like if he carries a gun he is far more likely to find himself in a situation where he has to actually use it. That whole thought process is just....alien to me.
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  #44  
Old 9 July 2018, 15:57
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I've seen and worked with a lot of "small" departments, but some of the department's that are presented in this site are embarrassing. If they are that pathetic, they need to be closed and consumed by the Sheriff's Offices or State Police. They are more of a liability than a service that needs to be provided.
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  #45  
Old 9 July 2018, 17:26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grog18b View Post
Personal responsibility.
Personal responsibility has become un-American. Definitely doesn't fit in with our liberal values.
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  #46  
Old 10 July 2018, 08:02
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I view carrying along the lines of the spare tire for my vehicle. I hope I never need it, but its there if I do, and know how to use it. People with their head in the sand, "it can't happen to me", just scare me.
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  #47  
Old 10 July 2018, 08:44
Attila175 Attila175 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 256 View Post
Would you rather guys get trigger-time, regardless of their skill level and give them ammo to do it. Or NOT get trigger time because they have bad habits, and hold back on giving them ammo to train on their own.

I’m catching flack (he forbid me to hand out ammo) from the senior Firearms Instructor because I chose to give out training ammo, that Officers are using to shoot on their own. My thought process being, if I empower them with ammo, maybe it’ll catch their interest and train more on their own (because of all the issues listed above). That’s my stance on it, maybe my thought process is wrong??
Anyone that is going to the range to get better should have a plan. Drills, target times, a way to assess performance, etc.

Is it possible to have Officers that want to improve spend, a training session with the SFI for assessment. He can then provide drills for them to do that address their issues. He should provide both live and dry fire drills. A LOT can be improved with dry fire.
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  #48  
Old 11 July 2018, 07:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Attila175 View Post
Anyone that is going to the range to get better should have a plan. Drills, target times, a way to assess performance, etc.

Is it possible to have Officers that want to improve spend, a training session with the SFI for assessment. He can then provide drills for them to do that address their issues. He should provide both live and dry fire drills. A LOT can be improved with dry fire.
I agree we got 2 of the SIRT training guns for that exact use. I've suggested very small group firearms training sessions (only a 20-man department), the SFI says "don't have the budget" for that. I've volunteered my time, but Officers aren't interested in training unless they are paid to go. I can't understand that mindset at all.
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  #49  
Old 11 July 2018, 19:44
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Originally Posted by 256 View Post
I can't understand that mindset at all.
In my experience, it's bred from the top down. If the agency management doesn't encourage/support extra training, then the majority of staff develop the same mindset.

But if the Chief was out there every week conducting extra training, then the sheep/majority will follow.

Something I found hard to understand was that the majority of staff do the minimal training, thinking that makes them experts, and not needing any extra training. Basically, it's unintentional ignorance, at all levels.
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  #50  
Old 13 July 2018, 17:00
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Now that I'm back on with a specialty unity it's range time almost every Friday morning. I thought of myself as a good shooter, but with this crew I'm middle of the road AT BEST.
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  #51  
Old 13 July 2018, 17:04
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Originally Posted by AZ5326 View Post
Now that I'm back on with a specialty unity it's range time almost every Friday morning. I thought of myself as a good shooter, but with this crew I'm middle of the road AT BEST.
Train up and take advantage of it, Brother! You know - like I do - that when tough financial situations hit those agencies, they don't quit spending on paper and file folders...they hit the ammo first....
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  #52  
Old 14 July 2018, 07:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nofear View Post
In my experience, it's bred from the top down. If the agency management doesn't encourage/support extra training, then the majority of staff develop the same mindset.

But if the Chief was out there every week conducting extra training, then the sheep/majority will follow.

Something I found hard to understand was that the majority of staff do the minimal training, thinking that makes them experts, and not needing any extra training. Basically, it's unintentional ignorance, at all levels.
Youíre correct. Our Chief has been here for about 3 years and heís all about empowering guys to train. It just hasnít caught on at the lowest levels yet. I need to be more patient, maybe. On your last point, Dunning-Kruger effect is alive and well when it comes to the training philosophy of Police Officers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ5326 View Post
Now that I'm back on with a specialty unity it's range time almost every Friday morning. I thought of myself as a good shooter, but with this crew I'm middle of the road AT BEST.
Itís interesting, given your background, that you have the nuts to own that. If I could get cops to have more of an open mind, getting them interested in training would be much easier. What Iíve learned training cops, if you can point out or show some vulnerably or failure on your part as the instructor, theyíll be much more open to your ideas.
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  #53  
Old 14 July 2018, 07:28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZ5326 View Post
Now that I'm back on with a specialty unity it's range time almost every Friday morning. I thought of myself as a good shooter, but with this crew I'm middle of the road AT BEST.
Sounds good.
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  #54  
Old 14 July 2018, 07:35
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Originally Posted by AZ5326 View Post
Now that I'm back on with a specialty unity it's range time almost every Friday morning. I thought of myself as a good shooter, but with this crew I'm middle of the road AT BEST.
Yea, but just wait until the composition writing test comes out, then you'll show these wiley gunfighters!
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  #55  
Old 14 July 2018, 07:40
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Quarterly qual. ...
- 75 rds on pistol need an 80% to pass
- 45 rounds on patrol rifle
- 10 rounds on 870 .00, 10 Rds tactical slug
- have to shoot back up gun (one mag, or cylinder) to "show competence"
- also need to qual on off duty carry. Back up and off duty weapons/ ammo are at personal expense. Tactical team shoots formerly once a week with higher standards.

Twice a year, spring/fall there is scenario based training usually involving Sims or paintball.
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Last edited by Five-O; 14 July 2018 at 07:45.
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  #56  
Old 14 July 2018, 14:18
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Originally Posted by 256 View Post
Itís interesting, given your background, that you have the nuts to own that.
No sack needed for that statement. I'm with a group that does nothing but apprehend violent felons. It goes sideways often enough (twice in just the six months I've been here) that being involved in a shooting isn't theoretical. Its almost a statistical certainty. Guys train accordingly.
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  #57  
Old 15 July 2018, 13:51
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Originally Posted by AZ5326 View Post
No sack needed for that statement. I'm with a group that does nothing but apprehend violent felons. It goes sideways often enough (twice in just the six months I've been here) that being involved in a shooting isn't theoretical. Its almost a statistical certainty. Guys train accordingly.
Good stuff. Iím trying to get guys interested in saving their own life. Let me know if you need a guy! Stay safe.
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  #58  
Old 21 July 2018, 14:24
Stingray66 Stingray66 is offline
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For Kansas

Stage 1
3 yard line
Beginning on the 1 1/2 yard line, shooter will draw and fire 3 rounds as they are stepping backward and moving laterally one step. Shooter will re-holster and repeat the procedure again on command.
2 strings of 3 (6 rounds total)
3 seconds per string

Stage 2
5 yard line
Shooter will draw and fire 3 rounds from a two-hand supported grip. Shooter will reholster and repeat this procedures on command.
2 strings of 3 (6 rounds total)
5 seconds per string

Stage 3
7 yard line
Shooter will fire 2 rounds from the threat ready position with weapon in strong hand, supported by the weak hand. The weapon is then transitioned to the weak hand and supported by the strong hand for the final 2 rounds.
1 string of 4 (4 rounds total)
10 seconds
7 yard line
Shooter will fire 3 rounds from threat ready, strong hand only, one-hand shooting grip.
1 string of 3
4 seconds
7 yard line
Shooter will fire 3 rounds from threat ready while moving laterally one step, using the two-hand supported grip. Reholster and repeat on command.
2 strings of 3 (6 rounds total)
4 seconds per string

Stage 4
10 yard line
Shooter will draw and fire 4 rounds using the two-hand supported grip. Reholster and repeat on command.
2 strings of 4 each (8 rounds total)
5 seconds per string

Stage 5
15 yard line
Shooter will draw and fire 4 rounds using a two-hand, supported grip.
1 string of 4 (4 rounds total)
6 seconds
15 yard line
Shooter will draw and fire 3 rounds using a two-hand, supported grip.
1 string of 3 (3 rounds total)
5 seconds

Stage 6
25 yard line
Shooter will draw and fire 5 rounds from a two-hand, supported grip around a barricade in a standing position.
1 string of 5 (5 rounds total)
15 seconds
25 yard line
Shooter will draw and fire 5 rounds from a two-hand, supported grip around a barricade in a kneeling position.
1 string of 5 (5 rounds total)
15 seconds

Last edited by Stingray66; 21 July 2018 at 14:25. Reason: Format
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