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  #21  
Old 20 February 2018, 18:45
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Whoa.....calm down, Shane.
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  #22  
Old 20 February 2018, 21:06
Akheloce Akheloce is offline
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I'm of the opinion that today's pistol ammo isn't like ammo of just 20 years ago. My Redhawk loads for my 45 Colt are within spitting distance of traditional commercial 45-70 loads not too long ago.

Off the top of my head, I know or have met (personally) 3 people who have used a pistol successfully on a charging Brown or Grizz.

One was a guy in Soldotna who was walking his dog, and killed a charging Brown with a 454 Casull Redhawk. Another was a guy across Kachemak Bay who shot a Brown with a Glock 20 10mm (and himself in the foot as he fell back). Lastly, well known bear hunting guide Phil Shoemaker shot a Grizz with a 9mm using BuffaloBore ammo.

http://www.liveoutdoors.com/news/240...-9mm/#/slide/1

Sure, back in the day that a 44 was the most powerful, and 99% of people bought Winchester White Box 240gr soft points, pistols were a poor choice. But today, it's a different story.

Does anyone have any documented stories of a pistol being ineffective? I'm sure there are, I just haven't heard of any anecdotally.
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  #23  
Old 20 February 2018, 21:50
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Originally Posted by Akheloce View Post
Does anyone have any documented stories of a pistol being ineffective? I'm sure there are, I just haven't heard of any anecdotally.
I knew a few people in AK that shot at a bear with handgun, with unknown results (as in, unknown if they hit it or not, bear ran off).

I know of a couple of fatal maulings by persons armed with rifles that shot the bear prior to being killed (confirmed by bear blood or dead bear). As you know, it is a serious crime to fuck with bears in AK without legal justification, so I suspect the true stories often don't come out. We always hear "HE WAS COMING RIGHT AT ME I HAD NO CHOICE!!!" I suspect it's not always that way, based on my interactions with bears.

There are not that many human interactions with predatory bears that end in gunfire. I have had many, many interactions with bears, and only shot one, and I started that fight, as in, I attacked the bear, not vice versa. I have had other bears act aggressively toward me, and I acted aggressively right back, and we went our separate ways.

I shot that bear 5 times, 2x slug, and 3x buck. Both slug rounds killed the bear. Both slug rounds performed better than any pistol made (based on penetration and bullet diameter), and I was less than impressed with the performance.

I'll keep bringing my 45-70 along in brownie country.
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  #24  
Old 20 February 2018, 22:01
Akheloce Akheloce is offline
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There are not that many human interactions with predatory bears that end in gunfire.
True statement. I've had several run ins myself, the only one resulting in gunfire was a curious blackie who wouldn't leave the trail between me and my truck. A shot to the ground in front of him was enough to change his mind. Usually, just making noise, and backing off works.

I have heard suggestions that since AK's DLP law requires harvesting the skull and hide, many people hesitate to shoot (for those of you who don't hunt, it's A LOT of work to skin a bear and pack out the hide and skull- especially if you were just out for a hike with a pocketknife and day pack, not expecting to haul out a bear). I can see that. I tried my damnest not to shoot that black bear, tried everything to scare it off before shooting the dirt.

I've only personally taken a large black and a smallish grizz- both with a 35 Whelen. The grizz was one shot dead right there at about 80 yards, and the black took 2 shots while on the run. Of course hunting and defense are wholly different scenarios.
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  #25  
Old 20 February 2018, 23:17
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This is a very timely post. I am looking to trade my 1911 for a good backcountry carry(whole kit actually) The guy that taught me flyfishing uses a .44 wheel gun. I thought that is would be a good caliber, now not so much. He also has a cow bell and bear spray he carries when he is way out in bear country
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  #26  
Old 20 February 2018, 23:48
Akheloce Akheloce is offline
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Originally Posted by 10thvet View Post
This is a very timely post. I am looking to trade my 1911 for a good backcountry carry(whole kit actually) The guy that taught me flyfishing uses a .44 wheel gun. I thought that is would be a good caliber, now not so much. He also has a cow bell and bear spray he carries when he is way out in bear country
You can have both, get a 1911 in 10MM and use heavy BuffaloBore ammo.
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  #27  
Old 20 February 2018, 23:49
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^^^^^ I got a fever & the only prescription is more cowbell.

Good idea in bear country really. I worked at a Private Wilderness School in N. Georgia for 4 years turning bad kids into good ones. Mostly hiking on the AT. Many bear encounters. I usually just made noise, waved my arms, threw my hat, whatever. Unless it was a sow with cubs. At our school campus we had about 6 dumpsters. One of the last things we would do at night was run all the trash up to the dumpster in the John Deere Gator. Students were told to keep the doors closed on the dumpsters. I was carrying trash from the gator over to the closet dumpster and saw the door was open. I went to throw in a bag and a fucking bear jumped out the fucking door. I think both of us shit ourselves.

I still see the occasional blackie in the spring but no problem bears in several years. I like my 10mm.
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  #28  
Old 21 February 2018, 07:51
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We always hear "HE WAS COMING RIGHT AT ME I HAD NO CHOICE!!!" I suspect it's not always that way, based on my interactions with bears.
Like this?
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FarSide-Bear2.jpg (42.0 KB, 347 views)
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  #29  
Old 21 February 2018, 13:38
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I was talking to my brother -in-law yesterday an asked him about the time he & some buddy's were Boar hunting an came across a Bear & her cubs.

They heard the Bear an saw it was up set an started towards them. Ronnie my brother-in-law was a little slow climbing up a tree. (BUT HE DIDN"T KNOW IT) After a time the Mother Bear left with her cubs. Everyone was checking them self's over to make sure they were ok. Ronnie stated I ok, that when his friends told him to take off his jacket.
The back of his jacked had claw marks down it. Ripped it some actually. it was torn to shreds. He didn't even know it. Until he look at it.
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  #30  
Old 22 February 2018, 00:00
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Thanks for the heads up on the 10mm. I like that Glock has a 10mm. I will start looking into it. The one draw back is that I have POTUS Trump size small hands :)
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  #31  
Old 22 February 2018, 00:06
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Originally Posted by 10thvet View Post
Thanks for the heads up on the 10mm. I like that Glock has a 10mm. I will start looking into it. The one draw back is that I have POTUS Trump size small hands :)
You can get the grip reduced quite a bit by any good shop doing grip mods. The G20 is a great woods pistol. I tend to carry it a lot, in a Litepath chest rig. My "woods guns" are the G20, a 629 and a Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley 4.5", but the latter two are HEAVY compared to the G20.
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  #32  
Old 22 February 2018, 00:45
wowzers wowzers is offline
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Originally Posted by gavin View Post
You can get the grip reduced quite a bit by any good shop doing grip mods. The G20 is a great woods pistol. I tend to carry it a lot, in a Litepath chest rig. My "woods guns" are the G20, a 629 and a Ruger Super Blackhawk Bisley 4.5", but the latter two are HEAVY compared to the G20.
My woods gun is a Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter with Bisley grip, but it's a 7.5" and yes it's heavy.
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  #33  
Old 27 February 2018, 06:26
glockcqc glockcqc is offline
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Bear

Interesting discussion.

Funny, when the topic of "bears" comes up, & everyone is on line w/cartridge/bullet penetration kills. Well, what do you carry? You know, when your not in bear country?

The FBI & "big Army"...semi-discreetly, moving to a 147gr 9mm JHP. Just move along; ah,....Fackler data was bullshit (ie we didn't say that).

Penetration kills. Penetration w/a larger meplat/cut kills faster.

Good shooting.
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  #34  
Old 27 February 2018, 10:55
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Originally Posted by glockcqc View Post
Interesting discussion.

Funny, when the topic of "bears" comes up, & everyone is on line w/cartridge/bullet penetration kills. Well, what do you carry? You know, when your not in bear country?

The FBI & "big Army"...semi-discreetly, moving to a 147gr 9mm JHP. Just move along; ah,....Fackler data was bullshit (ie we didn't say that).

Penetration kills. Penetration w/a larger meplat/cut kills faster.

Good shooting.
Yes, penetration kills, the wider the path of the penetration, the better.

However, there are some major physical/physiological differences between bears and people. A person-sized bear can be a lot harder to kill than a person. A bear has a much tougher outer skin layer, much thicker fat layer, heavier/denser bones, and different nervous/cardiopulmonary structure.

I've hunted dangerous bears and dangerous people, and I don't see any equivalency between the two. A fair comparison would be a person wearing head-to-toe Level IIIA armor, with Level III armor covering the vitals.
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  #35  
Old 27 February 2018, 12:27
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We had the GW kill an Eastern Black Bear with a suppressed G17. It was in the hangar. It charged and he put 2 (I believe 115gn Fmj) into it's head. It piled up at his feet.

9mm fmj NATO has really good penetration.
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  #36  
Old 27 February 2018, 12:44
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Originally Posted by Nimja View Post
9mm fmj NATO sometimes has really good penetration.
Fixed it for you. I can relate multiple times that I have seen 9mm NATO FMJ fail to do much to people, let alone bears. And, penetration in and of itself is not the answer.
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  #37  
Old 27 February 2018, 14:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
Yes, penetration kills, the wider the path of the penetration, the better.

However, there are some major physical/physiological differences between bears and people. A person-sized bear can be a lot harder to kill than a person. A bear has a much tougher outer skin layer, much thicker fat layer, heavier/denser bones, and different nervous/cardiopulmonary structure.

I've hunted dangerous bears and dangerous people, and I don't see any equivalency between the two. A fair comparison would be a person wearing head-to-toe Level IIIA armor, with Level III armor covering the vitals.

Too point out one more difference... Bears don't chew khat or use drugs.

I know some "ole boys" in Somalia that were asking from home to send "better 9mm ammo".
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  #38  
Old 27 February 2018, 19:20
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Originally Posted by wildman43 View Post
All you need is a 22. pistol, a friend with you an a good pair of running shoes.

1. first you shoot your friend in the leg,where he can't out run you, put your running shoes on run like hell, an report that your ex-friend has been killed an eaten by a Bear.

The devil made me write this.
You only have to be faster than the slowest member of your party.

Having a couple of Karelian bear dogs around would be nice, too.

https://www.backpacker.com/stories/karelian-bear-dogs
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  #39  
Old 27 February 2018, 21:02
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True.. but he put it where it counted.. and it worked.

I wouldn't think khat would work with a busted spinal cord or a damaged brain stem.
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  #40  
Old 28 February 2018, 17:46
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True.. but he put it where it counted.. and it worked.

I wouldn't think khat would work with a busted spinal cord or a damaged brain stem.
When I took LFI 1 in the mid 90's one of the case subjects was a man that kept charging police with a severed spinal cord from a 12 Ga slug. PCP is a hell of a drug.
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