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  #21  
Old 11 June 2018, 19:15
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple36 View Post
You'd be amazed how many born-in-PRC, moved to US-now have a TS clearance in the military-and traveling back to China to visit family-folks there are in the military.
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  #22  
Old 11 June 2018, 19:25
DirtyDog0311 DirtyDog0311 is offline
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Originally Posted by MixedLoad View Post
The whole freakout over dual-citizenship is fucking retarded.
That wasn't really my point. My issue is that even a fucking retard would/should know not to grant TS/SCI/whatever access to people who have dual citizenship. ESPECIALLY CHINA. It's a low hanging fruit that apparently goes completely unaddressed. IMO, it should be one of the FIRST things that gets someone disqualified.

If our CI programs are deficient in manpower/resources, then why are we wasting their limited resources with chasing down people who should never have been granted access in the first place?
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  #23  
Old 11 June 2018, 20:09
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EchoFiveMike EchoFiveMike is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixedLoad View Post
The whole freakout over dual-citizenship is fucking retarded.

Look at the ones who created the most damage. All-American with easy backgrounds.

The problem doesn't lie with ethnical backgrounds, political beliefs, dual citizenship (a distinct advantage for some IC members), or any number of unique identifiers.

It lies with the fact that our CI programs are underfunded and woefully unequipped to effectively address the massive amount of people, places, and information they are supposed to safeguard.

And even by that measure, CI is doing a great job. If you consider the number of people with access to TS information (don't get me started on over-classification) and the resulting extremely-low lack of compromise to FIS, we're still good.

Whether it's money, sex, ego, or a combination thereof, we deal with humans in the Government, and all three of those at some point provide the right motivation for a minuscule group therein to sell out no matter how carefully we vet them.
That's a historically myopic and media campaign distorted opinion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Greenglass
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Gold
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morton_Sobell
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_spies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee
https://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/06/world/breach-los-alamos-special-report-china-stole-nuclear-secrets-for-bombs-us-aides.html
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GPO-CRPT-105hrpt851/pdf/GPO-CRPT-105hrpt851-1-6.pdf

Yes, there's been a lot of Americans caught in HUMINT, CI, SIGINT and industrial tech espionage, but let's not pretend that there haven't been shit tons of foreigners caught in the one true, no shit, existential super weapon programs that should be the absolute iron clad gold standard of counter intelligence.

Also, we got burned trusting the UK's vetting of their people with the whole Kim Philby/Cambridge Five CF, and some of the nuke spies were originally from the UK program (ie Fuchs). S/F....Ken M
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  #24  
Old 11 June 2018, 21:15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
That wasn't really my point. My issue is that even a fucking retard would/should know not to grant TS/SCI/whatever access to people who have dual citizenship. ESPECIALLY CHINA. It's a low hanging fruit that apparently goes completely unaddressed. IMO, it should be one of the FIRST things that gets someone disqualified.

If our CI programs are deficient in manpower/resources, then why are we wasting their limited resources with chasing down people who should never have been granted access in the first place?
Your ignorance shines through again. We have dual citizens right here under your nose who have rid the world of more evil than cholera. Oh but who knows more about that than you?

Your smartly crafted posts do not expand the narrow gap through which you see the world.
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  #25  
Old 11 June 2018, 21:33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EchoFiveMike View Post
That's a historically myopic and media campaign distorted opinion.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_Fuchs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius...thel_Rosenberg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Greenglass
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Gold
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morton_Sobell
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_spies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wen_Ho_Lee
https://www.nytimes.com/1999/03/06/w...-us-aides.html
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/GPO-CR...rpt851-1-6.pdf

Yes, there's been a lot of Americans caught in HUMINT, CI, SIGINT and industrial tech espionage, but let's not pretend that there haven't been shit tons of foreigners caught in the one true, no shit, existential super weapon programs that should be the absolute iron clad gold standard of counter intelligence.

Also, we got burned trusting the UK's vetting of their people with the whole Kim Philby/Cambridge Five CF, and some of the nuke spies were originally from the UK program (ie Fuchs). S/F....Ken M

You apparently did not read what I wrote and your rebuttal makes zero sense other than to explain that people do in fact spy for other countries. There are some somewhat important distinctions between a US citizen, a US citizen with dual-citizenship, and non-US citizen.

Klaus Fuchs? Kim Philby? Really?

I'll raise you some people who are still currently alive.

Ames, Hanssen, Pollard, Montes, Pitts, Nicholson, Pelton, Snowden...the dude in this thread who is at least number five in the last two years alone.

Which ones of the above did not create significant damage for the USG? I'll give you Snowden and Winner, maybe.

If you want to go down the dual-citizen role and at least have somewhat of a point, I'll raise you a Dongfan Greg Chun.

But seriously....you're free to believe that Americans are less likely to willingly compromise classified information than dual-citizens. Murica!
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  #26  
Old 11 June 2018, 22:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
That wasn't really my point. My issue is that even a fucking retard would/should know not to grant TS/SCI/whatever access to people who have dual citizenship.
Why don’t you sit this one out, champ?
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  #27  
Old 11 June 2018, 23:58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
That wasn't really my point. My issue is that even a fucking retard would/should know not to grant TS/SCI/whatever access to people who have dual citizenship. ESPECIALLY CHINA. It's a low hanging fruit that apparently goes completely unaddressed. IMO, it should be one of the FIRST things that gets someone disqualified.
https://youtu.be/eOccnRyCUUQ

“Or did Turner not think it was a good idea to have people speak the same language as the fucking people they’re spying on”.

My GF immigrated from Eastern Europe and holds a TS/SCI. As someone who grew up under Communism she straight up loves this country. Dual citz have something called “a-c-c-e-s-s”...
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  #28  
Old 12 June 2018, 01:14
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Anyone born in a foreign country who now holds American citizenship probably has functional dual citizenship, even if they don't have two passports in hand.

Germany is the only country that comes to mind that considers that if you take out citizenship anywhere else, you automatically lose your German citizenship. You can apply to retain it but unless you have a "von" in your name, own a lot of property in Germany or some other such consideration, such application will usually be denied. Ask my wife. If she wanted to go back to Germany to live she would have register as a non-EU "foreigner", West Berlin born and raised or not. She could not work legally, she could not receive social benefits of any kind, etc.....because she is no longer a citizen. Most everywhere else, just like here, you are always a citizen of the country you were born in, like it or don't.

DD0311, IMHO no one can always be right, and on this one you should take a knee. You have picked too wide a brush, limit it to the Chinese and I think few would disagree, there's obviously a problem here, but paint everyone else and it doesn't work.
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  #29  
Old 12 June 2018, 05:48
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixedLoad View Post
You apparently did not read what I wrote and your rebuttal makes zero sense other than to explain that people do in fact spy for other countries. There are some somewhat important distinctions between a US citizen, a US citizen with dual-citizenship, and non-US citizen.

Klaus Fuchs? Kim Philby? Really?

I'll raise you some people who are still currently alive.

Ames, Hanssen, Pollard, Montes, Pitts, Nicholson, Pelton, Snowden...the dude in this thread who is at least number five in the last two years alone.

Which ones of the above did not create significant damage for the USG? I'll give you Snowden and Winner, maybe.

If you want to go down the dual-citizen role and at least have somewhat of a point, I'll raise you a Dongfan Greg Chun.

But seriously....you're free to believe that Americans are less likely to willingly compromise classified information than dual-citizens. Murica!
Mixed Load, there is not point in arguing with our current resident racists.

They are good as long as the traitors are home grown white.
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  #30  
Old 12 June 2018, 05:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 8654maine View Post
Mixed Load, there is not point in arguing with our current resident racists.

They are good as long as the traitors are home grown white.
Agreed, brother. I think Jimbo's response nailed it, as usual.
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  #31  
Old 12 June 2018, 10:12
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Originally Posted by cedsall View Post
With Americans it's always about the money. You never get a good ideological recruitment. Just pay enough and you get whatever you want.
It's rarely just about one motivation, even when the target might claim it is. It is almost always a combination of motives.

And agree with ML, dual cit may be one of those factors, may not. Plenty of traitors have had only US heritage, more than had dual in fact.
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  #32  
Old 12 June 2018, 10:31
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"But in this case two of the spies were straight up white boys-Mormons for that matter. China has expanded beyond their purely ethnic targeting."

"China has some serious honey traps also."

Some of our Mormon Church members have some strange/twisted sex habits...... Bingo!
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  #33  
Old 12 June 2018, 17:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple36 View Post
Ana Montes.....

Money is usually not the best motivation...but what money can buy is.
Yep. You always want the idiot with stars in their eyes. But money will do in a pinch.
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  #34  
Old 13 June 2018, 10:32
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Originally Posted by Stopp700 View Post
"But in this case two of the spies were straight up white boys-Mormons for that matter. China has expanded beyond their purely ethnic targeting."

"China has some serious honey traps also."

Some of our Mormon Church members have some strange/twisted sex habits...... Bingo!
Throw some healthcare fraud (compound drugs) in there as well. Without qualification, in my 28-years of my professional life, the most corrupt and greedy fraud case I ever worked involved folks from that church. Entire families were used and literally bags of cash were being handed out for referrals. I flew into Salt Lake City and traveled the state for a week from small town to small town, ending up in St George. I interviewed beautiful white young families that were exceedingly kind, polite, and the epitome of small town America and apple pie, yet they also happened to be corrupt as hell. They ultimately succeeded in getting over $1.4M from my client, and this came down to only 6-families billing within a 6-month window. They weren't amateurs.
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  #35  
Old 13 June 2018, 11:34
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Originally Posted by cj View Post
Throw some healthcare fraud (compound drugs) in there as well. Without qualification, in my 28-years of my professional life, the most corrupt and greedy fraud case I ever worked involved folks from that church. Entire families were used and literally bags of cash were being handed out for referrals. I flew into Salt Lake City and traveled the state for a week from small town to small town, ending up in St George. I interviewed beautiful white young families that were exceedingly kind, polite, and the epitome of small town America and apple pie, yet they also happened to be corrupt as hell. They ultimately succeeded in getting over $1.4M from my client, and this came down to only 6-families billing within a 6-month window. They weren't amateurs.
Off topic but for the most part F Mormons.
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  #36  
Old 13 June 2018, 14:28
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Originally Posted by Hot Mess View Post
Off topic but for the most part F Mormons.
They appear to have a lot of church members in the Intell community. Is it a coincidence that the " Intelligence Community Comprehensive National Cybersecurity Initiative Data Center" is in Utah? Odd's 1 in 50......
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  #37  
Old 13 June 2018, 14:42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
My issue is that even a fucking retard would/should know not to grant TS/SCI/whatever access to people who have dual citizenship.
Most of your opinions come across as well thought out, whether I happen to agree with them or not. This is not one of those IMO.
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  #38  
Old 13 June 2018, 16:06
Paul85 Paul85 is offline
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Quote:
It's hard understand why someone
would do this.
There are various hooks and nets to catch the fish with.
As to the dual citizenship, IMO it's no indicator to anything.
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  #39  
Old 13 June 2018, 23:01
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Originally Posted by bobofthedesert View Post
They appear to have a lot of church members in the Intell community. Is it a coincidence that the " Intelligence Community Comprehensive National Cybersecurity Initiative Data Center" is in Utah? Odd's 1 in 50......
Because they can all get clearances because they don’t have skeletons, besides getting marrried at 17 and pumping out kids. As for the data center that more a Congress thing, jobs and all.

I’ve worked with Mormons in the .mil and from what I saw they can all of fuck themselves, yes I know we have some here. I’ve also had Mormon friends growing up. Long story short the AF JAG at a joint command I worked at made the horrible decision of “informing me” that the XO of the unit (we didn’t get along) was the muckity-muck of the local church. At which point I told him I was confused and asked him if he was implying that a chucrch leader could influence my military career. Needless to say that subject was never brought up to me again...

Mormons care about two things, the church and money. Mormons are responsible for Howard Hughes’ drugged, frail, state in the last ‘50’s until his death.
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  #40  
Old 14 June 2018, 01:21
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Originally Posted by Hot Mess View Post
Mormons are responsible for Howard Hughes’ drugged, frail, state in the last ‘50’s until his death.
I had not heard that one, can I ask "how so"?
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