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  #21  
Old 7 August 2017, 17:07
Steve509 Steve509 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bulwar View Post
I was asked to, and did, a review of their initial prototype. Doesn't suck, but I still think a lot of the benefit to all the various dry-fire trainers is that they add a little excitement to dry fire training that might get people to actually, I don't know, do a little dry-fire training. The biggest true advantage of a recording system that I can see is to get people to stop looking over their sights for the POI.

Be sure to zero your laser cartridge to the weapon. Maybe some people get laser cartridges that are awesome right out of the packaging, but I always have to rotate mine until the "POI" matches POA and then mark them for future use.

ETA-I agree with Sharky's point regarding anticipation/flinching, but I also believe there is a lot of value in doing "dry weapons" training for everything else that goes into running the weapon short of the bang. Mounting, NPOA, reloads, etc.
Thanks for the review. Especially for the tip about the laser bullets.

My dry firing exercises are most often done while watching a game on TV. I shoot the players on the wrong team.
Now, thanks to TFG, I do it with a dime balanced on the front sight. That makes it even more interesting and challenging, especially when the player is running.

I honestly don't know if that's a good way to practice DF or not, but it does get me to practice DF more often.

BTW, the Dodgers are playing well for a team whose players have been shot multiple times.
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  #22  
Old 7 August 2017, 20:01
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For accuarcy practice you need a small target. Something like a target paster stuck on the wall. Not a moving target. Better to do focused deliberate practice for smaller periods of time than a lot of improper practice that doesnt help or reinforces bad habits. Just my experience.

So, depends on what your practice is trying to accomplish.
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  #23  
Old 7 August 2017, 21:14
Steve509 Steve509 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
For accuarcy practice you need a small target. Something like a target paster stuck on the wall. Not a moving target. Better to do focused deliberate practice for smaller periods of time than a lot of improper practice that doesnt help or reinforces bad habits. Just my experience.

So, depends on what your practice is trying to accomplish.
Thanks.
I also practice DF one handed and with the support hand as well. Do you think that's worth doing?

I'm still a fairly new shooter and appreciate the advice.

Last edited by Steve509; 7 August 2017 at 21:25.
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  #24  
Old 7 August 2017, 22:21
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I got into bullseye pistol competition for awhile (after my Cowboy Action Shooting phase), anyway I started doing allot of dry fire, definitely tightened my groups.

Stumbled on onto

https://www.laserlyte.com/products/trainer-pistol-pre

and

https://www.laserlyte.com/products/q...trainer-target

I got really addicted to it. Still train with it everyday, 10 dry fires a day. Its made me a much better shooter. Plus the customer service from LaserLyte was outstanding. I wore two of them out over 3 years, they replaced them for free and threw in batteries as well.

Highly recommend them!
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  #25  
Old 8 August 2017, 09:04
Bulwar Bulwar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve509 View Post
Thanks.
I also practice DF one handed and with the support hand as well. Do you think that's worth doing?

I'm still a fairly new shooter and appreciate the advice.
the only thing I can think of that you shouldn't dry fire is recoil management.

I do think it's a good investment to have an instructor take a look to make sure you aren't developing any bad habits without realizing it
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  #26  
Old 8 August 2017, 10:55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve509 View Post
Thanks.
I also practice DF one handed and with the support hand as well. Do you think that's worth doing?

I'm still a fairly new shooter and appreciate the advice.

Honestly, I don't see the point. If you are shooting one handed it's because your other arm doesn't work and at that point that level of accuracy is out the window anyway. Now if you are shooting NRA bullseye, then yes.

The point is that as speed increases, accuracy decreases. The idea is to close that gap as much as possible. The gap gets closed by learning to shoot accurately first. Anyone can shoot fast. But speed without accuracy is useless. Once you establish a baseline of accuracy, you can start pushing the speed up gradually as you learn how to manage the balance between the two based on the situation at hand. For example, you can blaze away at the 3 yard line with little concern for accuracy and be fine. Move to 15 and you have to dial the speed down. Move to 25 and you have to dial it way down. But the more accurate your baseline is, the less you need to slow down due to distance.

Make sense?
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  #27  
Old 8 August 2017, 13:10
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RGR.Montcalm RGR.Montcalm is offline
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
Honestly, I don't see the point. If you are shooting one handed it's because your other arm doesn't work and at that point that level of accuracy is out the window anyway. Now if you are shooting NRA bullseye, then yes.

The point is that as speed increases, accuracy decreases. The idea is to close that gap as much as possible. The gap gets closed by learning to shoot accurately first. Anyone can shoot fast. But speed without accuracy is useless. Once you establish a baseline of accuracy, you can start pushing the speed up gradually as you learn how to manage the balance between the two based on the situation at hand. For example, you can blaze away at the 3 yard line with little concern for accuracy and be fine. Move to 15 and you have to dial the speed down. Move to 25 and you have to dial it way down. But the more accurate your baseline is, the less you need to slow down due to distance.

Make sense?
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast" read that on the internet somewhere...
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  #28  
Old 8 August 2017, 15:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
For accuarcy practice you need a small target. Something like a target paster stuck on the wall. Not a moving target. Better to do focused deliberate practice for smaller periods of time than a lot of improper practice that doesnt help or reinforces bad habits. Just my experience.

So, depends on what your practice is trying to accomplish.
Pat Mac has a drill where you start with a blank IPSC target and you just shoot the first round, center of mass.

Every round after that goes into that same hole. Both, strong and support hand firing. Dry fire is not a panacea. You have to bust caps to get used to managing recoil. Simulating the fight, for me, helps prevent flinching. The worst thing you can do is stand in front of a target and shoot an entire magazine with no particular objective (Accuracy, shoot in one hole for instance), Shooting for shooting sake.
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  #29  
Old 8 August 2017, 16:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
Pat Mac has a drill where you start with a blank IPSC target and you just shoot the first round, center of mass.

Every round after that goes into that same hole. Both, strong and support hand firing. Dry fire is not a panacea. You have to bust caps to get used to managing recoil. Simulating the fight, for me, helps prevent flinching. The worst thing you can do is stand in front of a target and shoot an entire magazine with no particular objective (Accuracy, shoot in one hole for instance), Shooting for shooting sake.
Completely agree. I never said dont do one-handed shooting. I said I dont see the point in doing one-handed dry firing unless you are training to do NRA Bullseye shooting or something similar.

As I said earlier, it really depends on what your training is designed to accomplish, which is determined in most cases by yourself. If you are training to achieve better accuracy, dry fire is a valuable tool. That is why guys like Dave Tubb spend 70% of their training time doing dry fire and 30% live fire, because their goal is accuracy. If you are training with an objective to improve recoil management, then the only way to truly do that is live fire, but that is a completely different training goal.

The drill you speak of that Pat does (which I do virtually every time I live fire) is a great drill for someone who is already an accurate shooter with no serious anticipation issues. But for someone who isn't, they can shoot it all day and not see any improvement unless they have someone with them who can diagnose issues and coach for improvement.
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  #30  
Old 8 August 2017, 18:33
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  #31  
Old 8 August 2017, 19:22
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Originally Posted by jportal50 View Post
Same techniques in teaching my kids. This one is the oldest (16) and she is still working on her shot groups.
Grip looks good.

Here is one of my favorite videos on this subject...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=li0rGtXh23I
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  #32  
Old 8 August 2017, 19:31
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Originally Posted by Steve509 View Post
My dry firing exercises are most often done while watching a game on TV. I shoot the players on the wrong team.
I thought you were going to say it was the only time you watched CNN and MSNBC. LOL!
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  #33  
Old 8 August 2017, 20:17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RGR.Montcalm View Post
"Slow is smooth, smooth is fast" read that on the internet somewhere...
Kind of. For shooting be fast where you can and slow down where you need to. You can rip that thing out of the holster and get it out there quick, then slow down a hair for your sight pic and trigger squeeze. I might be so fast I'm grabbing some cover shirt but I'm also getting it out there quickly and I can fix my grip enough and still get accurate hits in time.

I've also heard the term "shooter solution". Which is just how fast an individual can accurately engage targets. If you can bang that trigger at 25m and get A zone hits, rock on. Or if you can run down a hallway and hit center mass, awesome.
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  #34  
Old 8 August 2017, 20:30
Steve509 Steve509 is offline
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
Honestly, I don't see the point. If you are shooting one handed it's because your other arm doesn't work and at that point that level of accuracy is out the window anyway. Now if you are shooting NRA bullseye, then yes.

The point is that as speed increases, accuracy decreases. The idea is to close that gap as much as possible. The gap gets closed by learning to shoot accurately first. Anyone can shoot fast. But speed without accuracy is useless. Once you establish a baseline of accuracy, you can start pushing the speed up gradually as you learn how to manage the balance between the two based on the situation at hand. For example, you can blaze away at the 3 yard line with little concern for accuracy and be fine. Move to 15 and you have to dial the speed down. Move to 25 and you have to dial it way down. But the more accurate your baseline is, the less you need to slow down due to distance.

Make sense?
It makes total sense.

The reason I practice DF one handed and with the support hand is for a qualifying test(s). I have passed that test, but I have a lot of room for improvement and I want to get better.

On a side note, I know you can't learn to shoot from reading a message board, but you sure can get some helpful tips from
THIS message board.

I thank you and the others here for some great advice. You guys have helped me improve and avoid some rookie mistakes.
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  #35  
Old 8 August 2017, 21:02
Steve509 Steve509 is offline
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Originally Posted by Bulwar View Post
the only thing I can think of that you shouldn't dry fire is recoil management.

I do think it's a good investment to have an instructor take a lookto make sure you aren't developing any bad habits without realizing it
I took a private lesson shortly after I started out last summer. Ive had a couple of group lessons as well.

Taking a private lesson soon after I started shooting was a good move. The guy worked mostly on my grip and stance. It made and a huge difference, instantly.

After he corrected my stance, he had me close my eyes, make a few circles in the air, return to what I thought was the center of the target, and fire 4 shots, all with my eyes still closed. I was amazed to see all four shots were within the 9 circle on the humanoid target. The distance was 15 feet.
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  #36  
Old 8 August 2017, 21:06
Akheloce Akheloce is offline
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A little off subject, but anyone try point shooting?

I practice a little with my LCP with a laser (button below trigger)... Pulling it out, or up from the ready, and depressing the laser button at a spot on the wall while not looking at the sights. Sometimes works, getting better.

When actually shooting with any number of pistols, I've tried point shooting at a 3x5 index card at 7 yards. Not an expert, but getting better. Wasting time?
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  #37  
Old 8 August 2017, 22:27
Bulwar Bulwar is offline
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Originally Posted by Akheloce View Post
A little off subject, but anyone try point shooting?

I practice a little with my LCP with a laser (button below trigger)... Pulling it out, or up from the ready, and depressing the laser button at a spot on the wall while not looking at the sights. Sometimes works, getting better.

When actually shooting with any number of pistols, I've tried point shooting at a 3x5 index card at 7 yards. Not an expert, but getting better. Wasting time?
As a civilian, I train with the idea (to an extent at least) that if I ever have to "go hot" I've already been successfully ambushed. So I work on either point shooting or target focused shooting quite a bit. I've gotten better. More to the point, for me at least, I'm better at getting my muzzle on target right out of the holster, getting hits, then getting on my front sight as it breaks my line of sight.
As an aside, when I switched to carrying one of Litepath's IWB holsters in the appendix position I had to work hard on this for a week or 2 before I felt comfortable with the A-IWB. The change from an OWB at 3 o'clock threw me off
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  #38  
Old 8 August 2017, 22:39
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On the subject of SHO or WHO shooting, I found that my weak hand (or support, if you prefer) got much better with very little work. Not hitting a gnat's behind at 200 meters, but getting center mass hits in a somewhat respectable time frame with fairly consistent splits

For SHO it's more a matter of seeing what I need to see. No more or less. For some reason, I tend to want to over refine my sight alignment when I'm shooting strong hand.
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  #39  
Old 8 August 2017, 22:51
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Completely agree. I never said dont do one-handed shooting. I said I dont see the point in doing one-handed dry firing unless you are training to do NRA Bullseye shooting or something similar.

As I said earlier, it really depends on what your training is designed to accomplish, which is determined in most cases by yourself. If you are training to achieve better accuracy, dry fire is a valuable tool. That is why guys like Dave Tubb spend 70% of their training time doing dry fire and 30% live fire, because their goal is accuracy. If you are training with an objective to improve recoil management, then the only way to truly do that is live fire, but that is a completely different training goal.

The drill you speak of that Pat does (which I do virtually every time I live fire) is a great drill for someone who is already an accurate shooter with no serious anticipation issues. But for someone who isn't, they can shoot it all day and not see any improvement unless they have someone with them who can diagnose issues and coach for improvement.
Sharky, you have more knowledge and experience than I do, and I'm interested in your opinion. I see dry-fire more as a way to train doing it right under a managed level of stress in order to increase my chances of doing it right under a full-scale adrenaline dump. Do y'all agree with the basic premise? Or am I fooling myself? By and large, I try to DF daily and get to the range weekly. Hopefully this works out to a 10-1 ratio, but I don't get that deep into the weeds on it. All live-fire training is done with a purpose.
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  #40  
Old 9 August 2017, 00:40
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Originally Posted by Bulwar View Post
Sharky, you have more knowledge and experience than I do, and I'm interested in your opinion. I see dry-fire more as a way to train doing it right under a managed level of stress in order to increase my chances of doing it right under a full-scale adrenaline dump. Do y'all agree with the basic premise? Or am I fooling myself? By and large, I try to DF daily and get to the range weekly. Hopefully this works out to a 10-1 ratio, but I don't get that deep into the weeds on it. All live-fire training is done with a purpose.
We don't rise to the occasion, we sink to the level of our training. Perfect practice makes perfect performance. Dry fire is a foundation, like presentation and sight alignment. I swing kettlebells during some range sessions and shoot from behind barricades to add some "realism". (Google the Viking Tactics barricade)
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