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Old 28 January 2013, 11:59
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Thread for Everything about the Immigration Reform

I figured that a consolidated thread will eventually come handy.

The framework for a major immigration reform is supposed to be announced sometimes today (LINK.)

The deal covers border security, guest workers and employer verification, as well as a path to citizenship for the illegal immigrants already in the United States. Here are the talking points:

Quote:
--Creating a path to citizenship for the estimated illegal immigrants already in the U.S., contingent upon securing the border and better tracking of people here on visas.

--Reforming the legal immigration system, including awarding green cards to immigrants who obtain advanced degrees in science, math, technology or engineering from an American university.

--Creating an effective employment verification system to ensure that employers do not hire illegal immigrants.

--Allowing more low-skill workers into the country and allowing employers to hire immigrants if they can demonstrate they couldn't recruit a U.S. citizen; and establishing an agricultural worker program.
A couple of thoughts:

- Given the existing unemployment rate, I can't see a need for more low-skill workers, but I am probably ignorant on the subject.

- I hope that the path to citizenship will not be provided to those illegal aliens who have committed crimes during their stay in the U.S.

- I am curious about the process that employers will have to go through in order to prove that they can't recruit a U.S. citizen. Looks like a potential for more bureaucracy.

- Finally, I hope that the "deal" will get rid of the immigration quotas that are antique and do not make any sense.
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Old 28 January 2013, 13:45
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Short of turning the 2000 mile border into a DMZ such as North Korea's, the US will never secure the border..and maybe not even then.

I guess it all depends on what they define as "secure"

I actully did a paper on this a few years ago. If you are interested, let me know and I will pass it on.
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Old 28 January 2013, 14:46
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H1B Perspective:

I was working with a SysAdmin of a small non-profit Private University last week. He came from Nepal for his Masters in Computer Science. He completed it a few years ago. He desires to remain in the States. Unfortunately, he's tied to his H1B sponsor, the University.

I did not know that there was a difference between Non-Profit and For Profit H1B Sponsors. He can't move to a for-profit enterprise while being here on a Non-Profit H1B.

I think this is outright silliness. Here we've got a talented kid that wants to be a productive member of our society, yet he's tied to a contractual obligation that essentially underpays him by $20-30K per year.

Thoughts of Slavery come to my mind.
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Old 28 January 2013, 15:07
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Fubar,

Not an expert on H1B visas but I believe that the issue arises from the fact that non-profit organizations (specifically, the ones engaged in education or research) are exempt from H1B cap that applies to for-profit companies. If the H1B quota for the given calendar year is filled, your SysAdmin's prospective employer will have a difficult time hiring him.

Hope it makes sense (not to say that it is a good way to run business).
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Old 28 January 2013, 15:21
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Quote:
Creating an effective employment verification system to ensure that employers do not hire illegal immigrants.
I'm interested to see how this plays out. There's been an ongoing work-a-round for decades.
I worked in the restaurant industry for a while when I got out of the Mil. Illegal immigrants seem to have the hookup when it comes creating new identities (BC's, DL's, & SSC's for $1800.) - We're talking dishwashers and line-cooks who can't speak english named Mike, Tim, and Gary.

What is the incentive for local business owners to really try and verify citizenship? What is the incentive for local Gov's to really enforce it? IMHO not much besides steeper prices on goods and services in the micro economies.
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Old 28 January 2013, 15:51
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Is it low-skilled labor they want, or cheap labor? There's a huge difference.

As to a path to citizenship? We already have one in place, though I understand it to be fairly difficult. Imagine that! Some countries want an American to have $300K in the bank before they'll grant citizenship, but we want to make it easier so that Republicans can court the Hispanic vote.

I think illegal immigrants should be shown the path to the door or to prison camps. If there was suddenly a true punishment for illegals caught inside our borders, they would certainly slow down the flow. If the risk vs reward isn't right, they'll stop coming. I don't cross borders without leave of the country I am entering. Were I to do so illegally, it would only be in a life or death situation. Anything else is inexcusable as far as I am concerned.
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Old 28 January 2013, 16:31
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Quote:
We already have one in place, though I understand it to be fairly difficult.
Word, my wife went through it, she played by the rules and was granted her citizenship two years ago after holding a green card for seven.
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Old 28 January 2013, 17:43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yojinbukai View Post
As to a path to citizenship? We already have one in place, though I understand it to be fairly difficult.
If you're a law-abiding employed non-minority, then yes, it is VERY difficult, almost impossible.
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Old 28 January 2013, 19:34
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This reform could be a good opportunity for the GOP to gain advantage with Hispanic voters. Marco Rubio looked very promising during the press conference. I wish that McCain wasn't so blunt when he pretty much stated that the GOP's motivation is to gain votes.

I am very curious to see how the reform will deal with border security, visa overstays, illegals coming from the Visa Waiver Program countries, etc.

Yojinbukai, your prison camp idea is cool (ETA: as long as these work camps are self sustainable and do not put any burden whatsoever on the taxpayers) but I would add that it should be combined with the increased penalties for employers of illegal aliens. There is no reason for any employer not to use E-Verify (as far as I know) - it is simple and free. Also, I would increase penalties on institutions that sponsor visas and do not adhere to the INA and other relevant laws (basically, I am referring to visa mills).
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Last edited by GirlwithaGlock; 28 January 2013 at 19:53. Reason: ETA
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Old 30 January 2013, 06:39
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This same turf was chewed up back in the mid-80's. I was pouring concrete then and our crew of 2 took a 2 dollar an hour pay cut so the boss could keep his bids competitive that summer. "Subcontractors" were coming into the rocky mtn. region with a whole passel of "documented" immigrants. Every assclown with a truck and a dog was becoming a contractor! It got real ugly and the negative sentiment towards illegals quite often became volatile.. I scanned the crowd at the POTUS in Nevada and most of those hispanics were not even born then, if they were they were too young to realize what was going on. It boiled down to the fact that there were not enough agents to control the problem and the farm and construction lobby could not make up their mind if reform was good or bad for their pocket book. Nothing really got done back then in the broader sense , hence our current debacle.
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Old 30 January 2013, 12:09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GirlwithaGlock View Post
I figured that a consolidated thread will eventually come handy.

The framework for a major immigration reform is supposed to be announced sometimes today (LINK.)

The deal covers border security, guest workers and employer verification, as well as a path to citizenship for the illegal immigrants already in the United States. Here are the talking points:

--Creating a path to citizenship for the estimated illegal immigrants already in the U.S., contingent upon securing the border and better tracking of people here on visas.

--Reforming the legal immigration system, including awarding green cards to immigrants who obtain advanced degrees in science, math, technology or engineering from an American university.

--Creating an effective employment verification system to ensure that employers do not hire illegal immigrants.

--Allowing more low-skill workers into the country and allowing employers to hire immigrants if they can demonstrate they couldn't recruit a U.S. citizen; and establishing an agricultural worker program.

We have a path to citizenship already, the simple fact no one want to admit is we donít need unskilled cheap labor. No developed country in the world needs more unskilled cheap labor. We have an excess of unskilled labor here if we would quit paying them to sit on the couch all day.

We have visas in place for the best and the brightest. We have natural born citizens graduating right now who canít get jobs.

They have an effective employment verification system right now but they will not use it. Every illegal here that is getting paid above the table is most likely using a stolen SSN. You could hammer millions of illegals and employers nation wide right now by searching for inconsistencies in SSN payments.

I donít want to respond to the 4th one because itís just crap. We are at 10% unemployment and they want to let more in, WTF.

A link about the 86 amnesty and how that increased illegal immigration.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2000/ins1986amnesty.html


My personal thought on this are I feel the Immigration lottery should be fair globally. I am sick and tired of the Mexicans getting special treatment because they happen to be able to jump a fence or swim. Also one look at modern Mexico tells me we have nothing in common. I really think it is a legacy on how the Spanish exploited that country. America was built on the protestant work ethic; I canít see were that meshes with the systemic corruption down south. Also protestant canít get a free pass every week for doing wrong.

Finally the old tired figure of 10 to 12 million illegals being here is bullshit. I would hazard that there could be up to 40 million or more. For a decade the Border Patrol caught a million a year at the southern border. That was a drop in the bucket of those that crossed. As the border got harder to cross you had less seasonal workers returning home. Out of the million a year the BP did catch, those guys didnít go home, the kept crossing until they made it. No one really knows how many crossed and made it, 3 million a year, 4 million who knows.

12 million illegals are like 4% of the current population. If there were only 12 million you would see Hispanics in every state and damn near everything now being bilingual.
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  #12  
Old 30 January 2013, 14:19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horned Toad View Post
We have a path to citizenship already, the simple fact no one want to admit is we donít need unskilled cheap labor. No developed country in the world needs more unskilled cheap labor. We have an excess of unskilled labor here if we would quit paying them to sit on the couch all day.

We have visas in place for the best and the brightest. We have natural born citizens graduating right now who canít get jobs.

They have an effective employment verification system right now but they will not use it. Every illegal here that is getting paid above the table is most likely using a stolen SSN. You could hammer millions of illegals and employers nation wide right now by searching for inconsistencies in SSN payments.

I donít want to respond to the 4th one because itís just crap. We are at 10% unemployment and they want to let more in, WTF.

A link about the 86 amnesty and how that increased illegal immigration.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2000/ins1986amnesty.html


My personal thought on this are I feel the Immigration lottery should be fair globally. I am sick and tired of the Mexicans getting special treatment because they happen to be able to jump a fence or swim. Also one look at modern Mexico tells me we have nothing in common. I really think it is a legacy on how the Spanish exploited that country. America was built on the protestant work ethic; I canít see were that meshes with the systemic corruption down south. Also protestant canít get a free pass every week for doing wrong.

Finally the old tired figure of 10 to 12 million illegals being here is bullshit. I would hazard that there could be up to 40 million or more. For a decade the Border Patrol caught a million a year at the southern border. That was a drop in the bucket of those that crossed. As the border got harder to cross you had less seasonal workers returning home. Out of the million a year the BP did catch, those guys didnít go home, the kept crossing until they made it. No one really knows how many crossed and made it, 3 million a year, 4 million who knows.

12 million illegals are like 4% of the current population. If there were only 12 million you would see Hispanics in every state and damn near everything now being bilingual.
I agree with most of what you have to say.

I take exception to skilled positions. Natural born citizens with degrees that can't get jobs likely have shitty majors or are tools. Unemployment for degreed individuals is more like 4.5%, not the 10% you are quoting. Less for engineering and sciences.

As I said above, I'd like to see the world's highly skilled that want to come here to become productive citizens be extended that opportunity. What we have now is a huge mess that takes up to a decade or more. No reason why that kid I qouted above from Nepal should have to go to Canada or Australia.
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Old 30 January 2013, 15:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubar View Post
I agree with most of what you have to say.

I take exception to skilled positions. Natural born citizens with degrees that can't get jobs likely have shitty majors or are tools. Unemployment for degreed individuals is more like 4.5%, not the 10% you are quoting. Less for engineering and sciences.
The moral there is if you are smart enough to get a degree maybe you should pick one where you can get a good paying job.

Quote:

As I said above, I'd like to see the world's highly skilled that want to come here to become productive citizens be extended that opportunity. What we have now is a huge mess that takes up to a decade or more. No reason why that kid I qouted above from Nepal should have to go to Canada or Australia.
I agree as long as they want to be American, no dual citizens, no 20 year LAPRs, you show up you get your citizenship ASAP or you get gone.
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Old 30 January 2013, 15:18
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The moral there is if you are smart enough to get a degree maybe you should pick one where you can get a good paying job.
Meh,..you don't have to be smart to get a degree,..I mean it's just a piece of paper you're chasing. I think you have to be smart to get an education. The onus is on the individual.

Quote:
Natural born citizens with degrees that can't get jobs likely have shitty majors or are tools.
IMO this is a little broad. There are plenty of non-shitty degree holders out there that enter their occupation field and can barely pay their student loans back let alone afford an apartment, car, etc. The job environment is a little difficult or different right now. 15 years ago I would agree with your statement wholeheartedly.
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Old 30 January 2013, 15:18
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Agreed Horned Toad.

Disagree Trig. You are throwing a red herring into the mix - student loans/bills/etc. Take a hard look at the unemployment numbers for degreed individuals. The unemployment rate is no where near as dramatic as it is for the unskilled.
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Old 30 January 2013, 15:28
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Originally Posted by Horned Toad View Post
We have a path to citizenship already, the simple fact no one want to admit is we donít need unskilled cheap labor. No developed country in the world needs more unskilled cheap labor. We have an excess of unskilled labor here if we would quit paying them to sit on the couch all day.
The big fib is that by allowing more unskilled labor into the American workforce will help solve debt as they pay taxes. There are 2 outcomes to allowing more unskilled laborers into America.
(1) More votes for Democrats (IIRC, 60-70% of Hispanic vote is consistently Democratic, even when GOP candidates are in favor of easier immigration).
(2) Increased burden on healthcare as unskilled laborers constitute a higher demand on health care resources with respect to how much they pay in taxes.

Cloward-Piven strategy at work
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Old 30 January 2013, 15:29
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Agreed Horned Toad.

Disagree Trig. You are throwing a red herring into the mix - student loans/bills/etc. Take a hard look at the unemployment numbers for degreed individuals. The unemployment rate is no where near as dramatic as it is for the unskilled.
Damn,...I was sitting here thinking it was me you agreed with

I agree with the numbers comparison for sure.
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Old 30 January 2013, 15:43
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Some readers/posters are under the COMPLETELY ill-informed concept that latinos are default Dems. That is bullshit. In MY experience, latinos are generally conservative, although YES -- one can certainly find areas of the population where they've been connected to the social IV line and are not keen to get unhooked.

Reps lose many latino votes strictly on their fantastic idiocy in communicating their so-called conservative position on immigration.

No one should misread my comments -- I'm neither suggesting that Republicants court latino voters by sucking up to them, nor do I support such an idea. IMO, the latino voters who vote Democrat would be irrelevant if conservative voters would get off their lazy, fucking, asses.

I do believe that if Republicants would stop acting like schizo cunts, and build a platform on immigration that they could communicate (even to themselves), that they might be surprised at how many latinos would sign up for their party....
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Old 30 January 2013, 16:12
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Some readers/posters are under the COMPLETELY ill-informed concept that latinos are default Dems. That is bullshit.
Sorry if I hit a nerve. My comments were based on my understanding of the history of the majority of the latino vote in US presidential elections since 1980. I was also commenting on the tendency of those near the bottom of the income scale to vote Democratic. If there is any data that unskilled laborers of latino ancestry have favored Republicans in the last 32 years I would welcome the correction.
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Old 30 January 2013, 16:33
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Latinos statistically vote with a significant Democratic bias and have for some time. I don't know the reasons, but the results are well known.

http://www.southbendtribune.com/sns-...213652.graphic

Immigration is currently being used, and has been since 1965, to socially engineer a significantly more liberal country.

Pretty much every single expansion of the voting franchise has driven the country more liberal. And that's not been a good thing for personal freedom, individual liberty or fiscal sanity. S/F....Ken M
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