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  #61  
Old 14 July 2015, 17:36
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It was a serious question. I replied "Of course I would he is an American."
This is why you and Nancy are two of the classiest people in America.
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  #62  
Old 14 July 2015, 23:03
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http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...f-a-prosecutor

Huge new yorker article about Alberto Nisman. It's couldn't be more timely, and more quickly brushed under the carpet. Such a joke.
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  #63  
Old 14 July 2015, 23:34
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The fuse is lit. We've just legitimized the Devil.
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  #64  
Old 15 July 2015, 06:16
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I would suspect you are correct, at least not with convention munitions.
There have been many setback to the program using unconventional methods, but even those are only setbacks.

Iran will get nuclear weapon capabilities and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it now. They (Iran) have multiple facilities the west knows about an undoubtedly more that the west does not. Iran has played the Obama administration exactly as they (Iran) planned. Give a little, regress, delay, give a little, repeat. Iran will get the weapons, the rest of the ME will get into an arms race. Not a pretty picture.
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  #65  
Old 15 July 2015, 06:17
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The fuse is lit. We've just legitimized the Devil.
Boom! Exactly.
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  #66  
Old 15 July 2015, 06:19
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Originally Posted by Hoepoe View Post
There have been many setback to the program using unconventional methods, but even those are only setbacks.

Iran will get nuclear weapon capabilities and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it now. They (Iran) have multiple facilities the west knows about an undoubtedly more that the west does not. Iran has played the Obama administration exactly as they (Iran) planned. Give a little, regress, delay, give a little, repeat. Iran will get the weapons, the rest of the ME will get into an arms race. Not a pretty picture.
I understood the distinction you made previously between stoping and delaying the movement towards a weapon.
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  #67  
Old 15 July 2015, 07:30
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Israeli PM has clearly stated they will act unilaterally if need be. Current POTUS won't have to deal with that reality but he is surely blue falconing his successor(s).
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It depends what that means. Israel cannot militarily stop the nuclear process.
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I would suspect you are correct, at least not with convention munitions.
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The fuse is lit. We've just legitimized the Devil.
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There have been many setback to the program using unconventional methods, but even those are only setbacks.

Iran will get nuclear weapon capabilities and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it now.
I'm of the opinion that if Israel wanted, it could conduct an effective EMP attack against Iran that would put them on the skids for some time. Consequences for such action would likely be harsh, but I don't really think anybody would start shooting.
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  #68  
Old 15 July 2015, 08:13
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I'm having a hard time believing there are top Dips in the Obama Admin who truly want to see us destroyed or dragged in to a ME nuke situation. As much as I despise SoS Kerry I do believe he is a patriotic American and loves the USA. I believe the same about POTUS, only that his politics often cloud our perception of that.

Any time the dividing line is so clearly down the middle regarding Republicans and Democrats, I have a hard time believing the issue at hand is as bad as the other makes it out to be. What could our President and his people have to gain by going blindly in to a deal that would make us and our allies MORE vulnerable to being nuked? Iran is basically already there and capable of building one. In fact, most countries are, considering the recipe is on the damn internet. To me, anything that gets us closer to be able to watch these shitbags is potentially a good thing. As for Iran and their current 'death to America", that is just more bullshit survival rhetoric their antiquated leadership believes gives them cover within their borders and with their few allies. I would not be surprised if a conversation actually took place where an Iranian dip says, "Ok John, we must continue calling you the devil and promising death to Israel. But it is only to save face. By the way, did you bring me those VHS tapes of Dancing With The Stars?".

I also would not be surprised if Israel has been given a wink and a nod by POTUS/Kerry to do what they want to do regarding all of this. I have come to the conclusion Israel is now more bluster and bark than anything else. As long as their only true natural resource, the American Taxpayer, is still providing them with money they are likely to stay in line.
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  #69  
Old 15 July 2015, 08:38
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  #70  
Old 15 July 2015, 08:55
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As much as I despise SoS Kerry I do believe he is a patriotic American and loves the USA. I believe the same about POTUS, only that his politics often cloud our perception of that....
I strongly disagree with these two assertions. I don't believe the Republicans of this country are much better, but of all of the Democrats you could have selected as examples of having patriotic views/goals, I think these two are probably the worst....
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  #71  
Old 15 July 2015, 09:13
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I strongly disagree with these two assertions. I don't believe the Republicans of this country are much better, but of all of the Democrats you could have selected as examples of having patriotic views/goals, I think these two are probably the worst....
I think POTUS does what he thinks is best for the country. I believe he loves this country and what it COULD be. If only he and his administration could get 4 more years he could achieve even greater successes. I happen to disagree with his vision and those who share it; I'll vote accordingly and hope any damage done is reversible.
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  #72  
Old 15 July 2015, 09:20
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There have been many setback to the program using unconventional methods, but even those are only setbacks.
I read up on that, super tits really, bravo.

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Iran will get nuclear weapon capabilities

Maybe, I'm not convinced they will ever have a functioning nuke weapon system, not with an acceptable yield anyway nor in any great number (maybe one or two). Building a weapon is one thing, delivering to a target is quite another.

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and there's nothing anyone can do to stop it now.
It depends on our diplomatic approach to key component nations. I doubt Iran going to be able to build something entirely on it's own, they might, but it's doubtful.

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They (Iran) have multiple facilities the west knows about an undoubtedly more that the west does not.
Ehhhhh, maybe, maybe not....more likely not.

Nuke facilities send off quite a target spike in multiple ways, it would be pretty difficult to have a fully clandestine processing, construction or assembly plant without detection.

However, I doubt anyone has the balls to actually do anything about it if anything is detected or suspected and Iran tells everyone to go stuff themselves.

There's the problem.
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  #73  
Old 15 July 2015, 09:45
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Originally Posted by Matchanu View Post
I read up on that, super tits really, bravo.




Maybe, I'm not convinced they will ever have a functioning nuke weapon system, not with an acceptable yield anyway nor in any great number (maybe one or two). Building a weapon is one thing, delivering to a target is quite another.



It depends on our diplomatic approach to key component nations. I doubt Iran going to be able to build something entirely on it's own, they might, but it's doubtful.



Ehhhhh, maybe, maybe not....more likely not.

Nuke facilities send off quite a target spike in multiple ways, it would be pretty difficult to have a fully clandestine processing, construction or assembly plant without detection.

However, I doubt anyone has the balls to actually do anything about it if anything is detected or suspected and Iran tells everyone to go stuff themselves.

There's the problem.
Other than a device delivered by a warhead, Iran is the biggest supporter of terror against the West and Israel. Imagine is the car in 1983 had a "dirty device", or Times Square, or Tel Aviv. On multiple occasions, even in the past few weeks and days, Iranian leaders have publicized rhetoric about "wiping Israel off the face of the Earth", and now they will, in my opinion, get nuclear weapon capability. I am not certain they will use it though, but just the threat is enough to gravely upset the delicate ME balance. Instead of Israel, or rather impotent Bibi parroting that "he knows how to stop Iran", Israel should have been partnering with the US on a sensible deal with Iran and preparing for the day after they have the capability. Tomorrow.

As much as i am confounded by, confused by, and dislike the "deal" that the US brokered, I place more responsibility for the current threat on Bibi, for not having the balls to deal with this in a decisive manner when neutralizing the threat was still achievable years ago.

Whilst i believe that Obama struck this deal to do what is best for the US, which he should be doing, I fail to see how it's best for the US or anyone.


An excerpt from the US State Department 2014 report on state sponsored terror.

http://www[dot]state[dot]gov/j/ct/rls/crt/2014/239410[dot]htm

Designated as a State Sponsor of Terrorism in 1984, Iran continued its terrorist-related activity in 2014, including support for Palestinian terrorist groups in Gaza, Lebanese Hizballah, and various groups in Iraq and throughout the Middle East. This year, Iran increased its assistance to Iraqi Shia militias, one of which is a designated Foreign Terrorist Organization (FTO), in response to the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) incursion into Iraq, and has continued to support other militia groups in the region. Iran also attempted to smuggle weapons to Palestinian terrorist groups in Gaza. While its main effort focused on supporting goals in the Middle East, particularly in Syria, Iran and its proxies also continued subtle efforts at growing influence elsewhere including in Africa, Asia, and, to a lesser extent, Latin America. Iran used the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps-Qods Force (IRGC-QF) to implement foreign policy goals, provide cover for intelligence operations, and create instability in the Middle East. The IRGC-QF is the regime’s primary mechanism for cultivating and supporting terrorists abroad.

Iran views Syria as a crucial causeway in its weapons supply route to Lebanese Hizballah, its primary beneficiary, and as a key pillar in its “resistance” front. In 2014, Iran continued to provide arms, financing, training, and the facilitation of primarily Iraqi Shia and Afghan fighters to support the Asad regime’s brutal crackdown that has resulted in the deaths of at least 191,000 people in Syria, according to August UN estimates. Iran publicly admits to sending members of the IRGC to Syria in an advisory role. There is consistent media reporting that some of these troops are IRGC-QF members and that they have taken part in direct combat operations. While Tehran has denied that IRGC-QF personnel participate in combat operations, in 2014 it acknowledged the deaths in Syria of two senior officers (Brigadier Generals Abdullah Eskandari and Jamar Dariswali). Tehran claimed they were volunteers who lost their lives while protecting holy shrines near Damascus.

Likewise in Iraq, despite its pledge to support Iraq’s stabilization, Iran increased training and funding to Iraqi Shia militia groups in response to ISIL’s advance into Iraq. Many of these groups, such as Kata’ib Hizballah (KH), have exacerbated sectarian tensions in Iraq and have committed serious human rights abuses against primarily Sunni civilians. The IRGC-QF, in concert with Lebanese Hizballah, provided training outside of Iraq as well as advisors inside Iraq for Shia militants in the construction and use of sophisticated improvised explosive device (IED) technology and other advanced weaponry. Similar to Hizballah fighters, many of these trained Shia militants have used these skills to fight for the Asad regime in Syria or against ISIL in Iraq.

Iran has historically provided weapons, training, and funding to Hamas and other Palestinian terrorist groups, including Palestine Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC). These Palestinian terrorist groups have been behind a number of deaths from attacks originating in Gaza and the West Bank. Although Hamas’s ties to Tehran have been strained due to the Syrian civil war, in a November 25 speech, Supreme Leader Khamenei highlighted Iran’s military support to “Palestinian brothers” in Gaza and called for the West Bank to be similarly armed. In December, Hamas Deputy Leader Moussa Abu Marzouk announced bilateral relations with Iran and Hamas were “back on track.”

In March, Israeli naval forces boarded the Klos C cargo ship in the Red Sea off the coast of Sudan. On board, they found 40 M-302 rockets, 180 mortars, and approximately 400,000 rounds of ammunition hidden within crates of cement labeled “Made in Iran” and believed to be destined to militants in the region.

Since the end of the 2006 Israeli-Hizballah conflict, Iran has also assisted in rearming Lebanese Hizballah, in direct violation of UNSCR 1701. General Amir Ali Hajizadeh, head of the IRGC Aerospace Force stated in November that "The IRGC and Hezbollah are a single apparatus jointed together," and Lebanese Hizballah Deputy Secretary General Naim Qassem boasted that Iran had provided his organization with missiles that had “pinpoint accuracy” in separate November public remarks. Iran has provided hundreds of millions of dollars in support of Lebanese Hizballah in Lebanon and has trained thousands of its fighters at camps in Iran. These trained fighters have used these skills in direct support of the Asad regime in Syria and, to a lesser extent, in support of operations against ISIL in Iraq. They have also continued to carry out attacks along the Lebanese border with Israel.

Iran remained unwilling to bring to justice senior al-Qa’ida (AQ) members it continued to detain, and refused to publicly identify those senior members in its custody. Iran previously allowed AQ facilitators to operate a core facilitation pipeline through Iran since at least 2009, enabling AQ to move funds and fighters to South Asia and Syria.

Iran remains a state of proliferation concern. Despite multiple UNSCRs requiring Iran to suspend its sensitive nuclear proliferation activities, Iran continued to be in noncompliance with its international obligations regarding its nuclear program. Implementation of the Joint Plan of Action (JPOA) between the P5+1 (China, France, Germany, Russia, the United Kingdom, and the United States, coordinated by the EU), and Iran began on January 20, 2014. Iran has fulfilled the commitments that it made under the JPOA. The parties negotiated during 2014 to pursue a Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA) to achieve a long-term comprehensive solution to restore confidence that Iran’s nuclear program is and will remain exclusively peaceful.

Last edited by Hoepoe; 15 July 2015 at 09:51. Reason: Updating info
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  #74  
Old 15 July 2015, 09:55
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A great point brought up by some is delivery. Iran may not have the capability to deliver a nuke, but who would they sell it to? NK (IMO) is bat shit crazy enough to buy one from Iran and launch that bad boy, (and that is a big "if" they get the delivery capability).
I have never really worried about Iran creating the nuke for nefarious ends, just who they would sell or give it to.
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  #75  
Old 15 July 2015, 09:56
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I think POTUS does what he thinks is best for the country. I believe he loves this country and what it COULD be.

I don't disagree with you on principle.

However, the current group of politicians have made it clear that "love" is a very broad word that none of us should ever define for someone else.
I also believe that the author of "Dreams of My Father" loves only what the country "could" be if governed strictly according to his own ideals.
...remember, the authors wife said, "for the first time in my adult life, I am proud of my country" The idea that the author is miles away from what his wife feels strikes me as improbable.

Love of country means different things to different people.

I would 'love' the Boston Red Sox if they were the Baltimore Orioles.

I think our leaders feel the same way about this nation. They would LOVE for it to be something else.
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  #76  
Old 15 July 2015, 10:02
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The following is specific regarding Iran and Israel. It doesn't touch on Iran's global hostilities. Not the date of "Jerusalem Day" - this month.

On July 10, 2015, Iran marked World Jerusalem Day, an annual event initiated by the Ayatollah Khomeini, founder of the Iranian Islamic Revolution, and held since 1979. Its stated objective is to express the support of Iran and the Muslim world for the Palestinian cause and the "liberation of Jerusalem." On the eve of Jerusalem Day high-ranking Iranian officials appealed for massive public participation in the marches in the main cities. This year the Jerusalem Day marches were held in the shadow of the ongoing campaigns in Syria, Iraq and Yemen. Because of the developments in those countries, high-ranking Iranian officials stressed that this year it was particularly important to mark Jerusalem Day in order to send the message that Iran and the Muslim world had not abandoned the Palestinian cause despite the challenges posed by Sunni terrorism. This year the marches featured not only their usual themes of condemnation and incitement against Israel and the United States, but also criticism of Saudi Arabia for its continuing military activity in Yemen.
According to the final announcement issued by the Jerusalem Day organizers, the Palestinian question, the "liberation of Jerusalem" and the effort to wipe out "the cancerous tumor called Israel" were the Muslim world's top priorities. It added that the only way to resolve the issue was by a referendum to determine the future of Palestine and the return of the refugees to their country. This year support was also expressed for the struggle the regional countries were engaged in against radical Sunni groups. The organizers of Jerusalem Day described ISIS's crimes in Iraq, Syria and Libya, and Saudi Arabia's aggression against Yemen as conspiracies and "a proxy war" waged by the United States and Israel to create schism among Muslims and ensure Israel's security. The announcement also expressed support for Iran's nuclear negotiating team, and called on the negotiators to respect the Supreme Leader's red lines and defend Iran's nuclear rights (Fars News Agency, July 10, 2015).

On the eve of Jerusalem Day, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani called on all Iranians to use the marches to express their hatred of the Zionist regime and the terrorist forces operating in the Middle East. He claimed that the participation of civilians in the marches during the nuclear negotiations would document support for their rights and honor, and that the more impressive the marches were, the greater respect for the Iranian nation would be and the stronger its regime would look in the eyes of the world (Fars News Agency, July 8, 2015).
Yadollah Javani, senior political advisor to the representative of the Supreme Leader to the IRGC, declared Jerusalem Day a day of unity and solidarity against Zionism for all Muslims. He said the participation of Iranians in the marches would send a message to the friends of the Iranian Islamic Revolution and to its enemies that today the Iranian people adhered to the principles of the revolution even more than in the past, and that Iran would not surrender to blackmail or threats, and would not stop supporting the oppressed of the world, especially the Palestinian people. He added that the enemies of Islam, led by the Zionists and the Saudis, were trying to make the world forget Jerusalem Day, and that the day had to serve as proof that the developments of the Middle East would not marginalize the issue of Jerusalem, which was the most important issue for the Muslim world (Tasnim News, July, 2015).
Ramazan Sharif, IRGC spokesman and chief of staff of the Council of Islamic Propaganda and Al-Quds Intifada, held a press conference where he said World Jerusalem Day would again prove that the Islamic nation, when faced common enemies such as the United States and the Zionist regime, and with the difficult situations in Iraq, Syria and Yemen, would not abandon Palestine, which, he said, was at the top of the Muslim world's list of priorities. The beginning of the destruction of Israel and the era of the end of the "criminal Zionist regime" was at hand, said Sharif. Not only the thousands of rockets possessed by Hezbollah, Hamas and the other "resistance cells," but also the weakness of Israel, its internal dissentions and the temporary nature of the Jews living there were ringing a death knell and proclaiming the collapse of the regime.[/B] The world, he said, had to deploy for the post-Zionist crisis (Tasnim News, July 7, 2015). Sharif also referred to Iran's support for the Palestinians, saying that Iran had the right to advise the Palestinian resistance groups and that the Palestinian groups were not dependent on Iranian aid, having developed their own military capabilities against Israel (Sepah News, July 9, 2015).
Last week the Hamas government announced the disbanding of the Saberin organization which had operated under Iranian aegis in the Gaza Strip in recent year. Saberin ran a series of Shi'ite religious charitable societies funded by Iran (arabi21.com, July 2, 2015).
Hamas' action was apparently mainly taken for internal reasons, but may also be related to the ongoing tension between Iran and the Hamas political leadership which began with the outbreak of the civil war in Syria. While Tehran deepens its involvement in Syria by supporting the Assad regime, Hamas turned a cold shoulder to Iran and declared its support for the Syrian opposition.
The fall of the Muslim Brotherhood's rule in Egypt in the summer of 2013 and Operation Protective Edge in the summer of 2014 renewed hope in Tehran for rehabilitating its relations with Hamas by regaining a foothold in the Gaza Strip and increasing its influence in the Palestinian arena. During the past year it has often been reported that Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal intends to visit Tehran. There have also been reports from sources in the Gaza Strip that the Hamas leadership has discussed renewing relations with Iran because it needs Iranian aid to rebuild the organization's infrastructure, damaged during Operation Protective Edge. However, with the beginning of Saudi Arabia's Operation Decisive Storm, Hamas issued a statement of support for the ousted Yemeni president and in effect expressed support for the Saudi attack on the Houthi rebels. Iran regarded the statement as a slap in the face and proof that Hamas preferred promoting relations with Saudi Arabia and the Sunni camp to closer relations with Tehran. The ties between Iran and Hamas' military-terrorist wing have continued, however, despite the political tensions.
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Old 15 July 2015, 10:03
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I think POTUS does what he thinks is best for the country. I believe he loves this country and what it COULD be. If only he and his administration could get 4 more years he could achieve even greater successes. I happen to disagree with his vision and those who share it; I'll vote accordingly and hope any damage done is reversible.
I believe he loves what he wants America to be. When he said "fundamentally change", he didn't explain what he meant by that. I think he does what is best for him, his peers, and his political allies, not what a majority of Americans think is best for us as a nation, and he believes the Constitution is a living document to be modified as he sees fit. I believe he (and 99% of all politicians) think Americans are too stupid to know what is good for us and we'd be best served by watching the Kardashians or DWTS and letting the professional politicains and bureaucrats run things.
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  #78  
Old 15 July 2015, 10:08
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The only thing this means is Iran will have a seat at the table with the big boys. They are not just going to nuke Israel for the hell of it.
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  #79  
Old 15 July 2015, 10:13
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This is going to be a shit-show.

Israel is pissed....and should be.

Mark my words, we will see Israel and Iran tossing nukes at each other in our lifetimes. My money is that this will escalate faster than the DPRK.
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  #80  
Old 15 July 2015, 10:14
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The only thing this means is Iran will have a seat at the table with the big boys. They are not just going to nuke Israel for the hell of it.
You place their rationale on the same scale as the West's. Your/our idea of "for the hell of it" and theirs is very different.

I too don't believe they'll nuke Israel, if they do, regardless of what is or is not left of Israel, Iran will be destroyed and they know it. Regardless, them sitting at the big boy table with undoubtedly directly influence how Israel, and the US, make decisions in the ME. I also think that this deal may push Iran obsessed Bibi into doing something reckless from where there is no easy return.
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