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  #81  
Old 2 November 2017, 17:35
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Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
Get your Total and Free Testosterone, and Estrodiol (E2) Tested.
...
A *good* HRT/TRT specialist will Rx Testosterone Cypionate if you are in the 300-400 range.
...
You *do not* want any gels or pellets, etc... you want a 10ml vial of 200mg/ml Testosterone Cypionate. Generic Watson is $45 for about 5 months worth, out of pocket with GoodRx
Polypro, tell me more about this. Lots of questions.

Is what you're referring to an injection type medication? Does a tolerance build up requiring more and more (higher dosages) over time?

I have not had the lab work done yet, but what are your feelings on addressing with just pro-Testosterone/anti-Estrogen diet corrections? Did you try that and have ANY luck at all?
Effects on blood glucose? Blood pressure?

IF I start an artificial T^, am I not shutting down (for good) any normal, natural production I may have left? In other words I'm signing up for a lifelong commitment to artificial supplementation?

Last edited by Tycon; 2 November 2017 at 17:43.
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  #82  
Old 3 November 2017, 07:42
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You won't know anything until you get blood-work done, but the odds that a 50yo is hypo-gonadal, or even 300s-400s (which is still a $hitty place to be) - is in the 90th percentile. Remember when you were 20? 25? You were probably 1000+ (ng/dl).

Diet isn't going to do anything that matters, neither are any bogus "Test Booster" supplements or Anti-Estrogens ("AI's"). All the marketing you see is usually based on Rats or if in actual people, it's a small 50-100 point boost... for around $50/month!!... you won't even feel it. Testosterone is like $90 a YEAR, even with 0 insurance coverage.

Yes, you will be injecting (if you're smart and you don't get a $hill for a doctor - Androgel or Pellets are like $400, compared to ~5 months of Test Cyp for $45).

Yes, you will shut down your 'barely there anyway' natural production - it doesn't matter. Yes it's life long just like the any other medication you take... even if you take none, you'll want to take this - trust me.

Since Testosterone is a healthy, natural, endogenous hormone, when dosed at TRT levels of 100-200mg/week - complications are rare, but possible. Your Doc will monitor your blood-work and check your Hemoglobin/Hematocrit in case you have a genetic defect called Polycythemia (abnormal, increased Red Blood Cells). And there's even a fix for that - go save lives and donate blood once every couple months. He'll probably do a before and after PSA (Prostate Specific Antigen) test - but that's a big debate, as Estrogen is believed more and more to be the problem, not the Testosterone. What's your BP now? If your Doc sees an elevation, he'll advise. Test should actually improve BGC and Body Composition. Being fat and crappy food are worse. Cardio, Resistance Training and Omega-3s (Just eat 1 can of Salmon 2x/week) are great for BP.

You need to find the right doc though - your average DO/MD down at the mini-mall is probably not up to speed. Find a TRT specialist for the least hassle. If you *do* go to a regular doc, make sure he is up to speed with, at a bare minimum:

Total Testosterone
Free Testosterone
Estrodiol (E2) *using the LC/MS "Sensitive" Test*
Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG)

Using:
Testosterone Cypionate injections that you will do yourself (and current "State of the Art" is Sub-Cutaneous injections into fat, 2x/week)
Anastrozole (Generic Arimidex, an Anti-Estrogen)

Bonus points if he also advises you on:

hCG (Human Chorionic Gonadotropin) to keeps the "boys" from getting smaller as well as other hormonal benefits (mimics Leutinizing Hormone, of which there are receptors all over the body for it, not just the Testes), and DHEA & Pregnenolone. The latter are over the counter supplements - They both decline with age as well. The former is another drug. It's affordable through a compounding pharmacy - not so much if you have to go to CVS/Walgreens - which is why getting an actual HRT/TRT specialist is best.

Sounds complicated - it isn't once the initial "tuning up" is done. Piece of cake.

P.S. Unless you live in a couple freedom hating States, you can do your own bloodwork:

https://www.discountedlabs.com/

See where you are. Hopefully you won't get a guy who says "The bottom range is 280 and you're 281... you're normal" You want at least 800. Treat the symptoms, not the number - "Doc, I have no libido, can't lose fat, can't build muscle, feel run down" blah blah blah. - which is why a specialist is the best option - you won't get any of that BS. Heck, print this out and take it with you. I get treated by the best - Dr. John Crisler - and he offers phone consults with local Doctors.

Last edited by Polypro; 3 November 2017 at 07:52.
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  #83  
Old 3 November 2017, 08:35
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Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
your post...
Excellent post! Thank you polypro. It's definately worth looking into. As much cardio as I do I'm surprised I haven't lost muscle mass (or labido, for 55+) but I do mix a bit of resistance (stairs, hills, leg curls, etc). But it would be nice to get rid of the very last 5-10lbs of visceral belly fat. I'll get the labwork and take a look.
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  #84  
Old 3 November 2017, 10:28
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Back to Fasting Blood Glucose: You aren't using any tobacco, are you? Nicotine induces Insulin Resistance. No smokey or chewy.
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  #85  
Old 3 November 2017, 12:01
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Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
Back to Fasting Blood Glucose: You aren't using any tobacco, are you? Nicotine induces Insulin Resistance. No smokey or chewy.
Nope, haven't smoked since High School. Modified Keto diet (so getting plenty of saturated fats). Modified in that I add in a few bowls of homemade chili (lots of beans!~) a couple times per week. And the occasional Beef Tacos (corn shells) meal once or twice per week. Fasting blood glucose typically around 105 at 4:30am. Then it's just bulletproof coffee (coffee, heavy cream, MCT oil, butter) until noon's keto meal. So, I'm doing an "intermittent" fast (12-15hrs) from carbs everyday. Daily carbs somewhere between 30-50g typical. This has now allowed me to have the occasional high carb meal...and BG return to 105-115 range the same day, instead of elevated to 180ish for a couple days before returning, like when I first was diagnosed.

No Metformain, no Ace Inhibitors, no Statins. I was prescribed all three, but after a couple weeks (and going keto) I no longer needed them. The Metformin was F'n-me-up anyway...and once I got below a BloodGlucose of 135 I HAD to take myself off it before the lactic-acid side effects (combined with the roadwork) killed me. Never even filled the Statin Rx.

The modified keto has kept me around a fasting BG <120 (usually 105-115) for a couple months now. Funny, because it was staying around 135, until I added the chili/beans (and more potassium in general) a couple times per week.

I'm anxious to see what the A1C test says in a few more weeks. And triglycerides. And Free T, Total T, and E2. I wanted to have it under control (without meds) for the full 90days before checking the A1C and Triglycerides. Looking forward to the comprehensive labwork!
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  #86  
Old 3 November 2017, 13:23
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No smokey or chewy.
Fawk. Really?
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  #87  
Old 3 November 2017, 17:05
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Polypro, am I understanding that it's typically just 2 injections/week, and that is SubQ, and not Intramuscular?

How long is typical to see any results if a person is in the 280range that you mention is typical for 50yr olds?

What type of shelf-life are you finding...is it possible to stock up on a year or two supply and still keep it viable?
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  #88  
Old 3 November 2017, 19:27
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Polypro,
Good info and much appreciated. Thank you. I had a Dr in Phoenix that almost to the letter followed your information. Good dude too. Since we have moved to the NW, I am working on my new doc to do the same. I printed your detailed post out to take it in next week and get him squared away on just what I want. Thanks again for putting it in a clear post.

I still dip tobacco though. Not sure I want to give it up.
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  #89  
Old 4 November 2017, 06:38
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Xenon, can you PM me with your phx doc if he's still around?
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  #90  
Old 4 November 2017, 07:12
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Originally Posted by Dark Helmet View Post
Fawk. Really?
Yes. Google "Insulin Resistance Nicotine" and there is a pretty recent PubMed study. The bad news is that it takes up to 12 years to get back to pre-nicotine use sensitivity - the good news is that you'll see an improvement start by 2 years after cessation. But hey, maybe dropping the weight, cleaning up the diet, and doing daily cardio/weightlifting will bring FBGC down enough where you can keep dipping - but it ain't ideal. I use 2mg Nicotine Gum *once* every few days for performance enhancement, and *in me* it raises fasting blood glucose about 10 points - from usually high 70's to high 80's. No idea about chronic tobacco use though - Dip and Cigs are a hell of a lot more mg than that, and they are used throughout the day. With the half life of Nicotine, the stuff just builds and builds. Just quit.
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  #91  
Old 4 November 2017, 07:30
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Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
Polypro, am I understanding that it's typically just 2 injections/week, and that is SubQ, and not Intramuscular?

How long is typical to see any results if a person is in the 280range that you mention is typical for 50yr olds?

What type of shelf-life are you finding...is it possible to stock up on a year or two supply and still keep it viable?
Again, a "regular" DO/MD who doesn't do this regularly, if he Rx's you at all, will probably follow what his computer spits out - which will most likely be 1 large injection, with a 22G 3" needle, infra-muscularly into the upper outer quadrant of the glute. There are even old ass protocols that say every 14 days or longer!!!! Good lord - the half life of Testosterone Cypionate is 5-7 days, which means you're going to have a large swing between peak and trough - better than nothing, but not ideal. You want nice, even, steady, constant levels - twice a week, with smaller doses, into slower releasing adipose tissue accomplishes that. But it's new, so unless really progressive, or a specialist (and even some specialists still want IM injections) you'll get the once a week instructions. But you don't need to follow them, LOL. Just get 25G or 26G 3/8" or 5/8" syringes and do SubQ twice a week with half your TRT dose

You'll notice an improvement anywhere from the first week, to the first month or two - depending on how low you were. Improved sleep usually happens quick. Libido/Energy/Not Grumpy is next. Body composition can take 6 months or longer (and you still have to train and eat properly or you'll ((not *you* specifically, LOL)) just be a fat guy with high Test). High body fat is also not good for Estrogen management, as adipose tissue is where the Aromatase Enzyme is produced - which is the enzyme that converts Testosterone to Estrogen.

Testosterone is schedule III drug, thanks to idiots in the 80's, and idiots now - you can't stockpile. You can't posses more than a X Month (I forget the number) unopened supply per the DEA. 100mg to about 160mg a week will be 1 10ml vial of 200mg/ml Test. Guys that need 200mg/week, due to high SHBG, get 3 5ml vials to comply with the law.

Last edited by Polypro; 4 November 2017 at 07:37.
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  #92  
Old 4 November 2017, 07:43
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Originally Posted by Xenonburnout View Post
Polypro,
Good info and much appreciated. Thank you. I had a Dr in Phoenix that almost to the letter followed your information. Good dude too. Since we have moved to the NW, I am working on my new doc to do the same. I printed your detailed post out to take it in next week and get him squared away on just what I want. Thanks again for putting it in a clear post.

I still dip tobacco though. Not sure I want to give it up.
Cool. If you're not pre-diabetic: fasting above 100 per the ADA - no worries. Get a $14 BGC meter and test strips from Walmart
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  #93  
Old 4 November 2017, 08:14
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Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
Get your Total and Free Testosterone, and Estrodiol (E2) Tested. The bad news is biology has probably tanked your Testosterone to hypogonadal levels no matter what you do. The good news is that it's 2017 and we have this thing called medical science A *good* HRT/TRT specialist will Rx Testosterone Cypionate if you are in the 300-400 range. Screw the lab ranges of 280 or below - luckily doctors can "treat the symptoms, not the numbers" and you do *not* want to be that low - and it can kill you early to boot. Any guy over the age of about 40, should get his hormones checked and hop on TRT if low... unless you *don't* want to feel like you did at 25???

Unfortunately, most *regular* doctors are clueless and scared to Rx Testosterone, so you need to do some legwork to find the right guy. Titan Medical is a huge clinic out of Florida, but the best guy in the US (IMO) is Dr. John Crisler in MI. IIRC, he does remote consults, although you may have to take a day plane trip once. Worth it if you can't find a local guy that knows what he's doing.

You *do not* want any gels or pellets, etc... you want a 10ml vial of 200mg/ml Testosterone Cypionate. Generic Watson is $45 for about 5 months worth, out of pocket with GoodRx - if you can't get insurance to cover it (which is a PITA if they even do).
With getting older, my hormone levels have completely tanked...man it is no joke...hormones rule the body and mind...it's been a horrible past 2 years for me..seriously. I've been trying everything, researching everything under the sun, and finally decided to do HRT...started last week. Nothing earth shattering yet...but just going to keep on keeping on. I'm on an Estrogen/Progestin patch at the lowest dose...and will consider a T shot in the future if my mojo doesn't return...
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Old 4 November 2017, 08:17
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Oh, and one more thing (or two). If you were full of piss and vinegar in your youth, pounding nails and looking for holes - you (probably, not a Doc, listen to yours) don't have a Benign Pituitary Adenoma at age 50. That may be a route some DO/MDs may start with. Also, if they mention Clomid (Clomiphene Citrate - a Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator or SERM) - maybe get a second opinion. Clomid will raise Test, but as soon as you stop, the odds that your 50 year old nuts will keep producing are not good. Old guys have low Test, use Test. Just like Old Girls have low/no Estrogen - it's what happens.
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Old 4 November 2017, 08:24
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With getting older, my hormone levels have completely tanked...man it is no joke...hormones rule the body and mind...it's been a horrible past 2 years for me..seriously. I've been trying everything, researching everything under the sun, and finally decided to do HRT...started last week. Nothing earth shattering yet...but just going to keep on keeping on. I'm on an Estrogen/Progestin patch at the lowest dose...and will consider a T shot in the future if my mojo doesn't return...
Good girl! More women need to be made aware of this - most just accept menopause. The Womens Health Initiative and North American Menopause Society have recent data on women's HRT showing quality of life improvement and safety. There would be less infidelity and divorce Good on the T too - women have it also (just like men have estrogen) - top of the healthy range is absolutely fine.
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  #96  
Old 10 November 2017, 19:39
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Lab sample completed today. Should have results and a game-plan in 7-10days. Doctor is a specialist, and conveniently is about 1mile from the house. Confirmed HCG is part of the program, and SubQ delivery method.

Didn't ask a -lot- of questions, as waiting for lab results and the detailed consult. But will print this page as a guide, Polypro. Thank you.

Just wanted to get the ball rolling on today's holiday...in honor of my two little long-serving veterans.



...

Last edited by Tycon; 10 November 2017 at 19:54.
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  #97  
Old 10 November 2017, 20:06
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My MIL has https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypoglycemia twice. for eating sugar free cookies. There are sugar alcohol inside those cookies. Which is twice the carbs....
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  #98  
Old 11 November 2017, 04:23
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Started Victoza yesterday. Im a little conerned about taking 3 insulin regiments. Long acting Lantus. Short acting NovoLog. And now Victoza. Weight loss is a side effect of Victoza. I could stand to lose 5-10 lbs so maybe there's an upside. Will see how it goes.
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Old 11 November 2017, 18:50
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Victoza is great stuff for me. Helped me level out. I'm at 1.2 units daily. For me, taking it in the morning is better. I got nauseated taking it at night.
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  #100  
Old 12 November 2017, 13:24
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Victoza is great stuff for me. Helped me level out. I'm at 1.2 units daily. For me, taking it in the morning is better. I got nauseated taking it at night.
I'm on .6 units for now. I do feel my appetite is a little suppressed but I'm having killer headaches for 2 days now. I'm not a headache person so I'm believing its the new drug. I take mine at night to keep the nausea at bay, plus I don't want to take 3 different injections all in the morning.
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