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  #1  
Old 8 October 2018, 22:38
Rockville Rockville is offline
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SWAT training by Israel

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018...rism-operation

American SWAT being trained by YAMAM
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Old 8 October 2018, 22:51
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For Fuck's Sake.
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Old 9 October 2018, 07:05
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With all the training they do overseas, it's a wonder where they find the time to handle their business at home.
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Old 9 October 2018, 11:51
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YAMAM is an excellent unit. They have a point: few units globally have anywhere near the volume of hand-on experience.
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Old 9 October 2018, 12:33
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Hands on experience with what? Working in an enviroment and culture that has no corresponding equivelent to the US?
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Old 9 October 2018, 12:56
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I didn't know America had such a shortage of domestic tactical units to train with that we have to drop coin on foreigners.
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Old 9 October 2018, 13:54
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Hostage and terror (active attacker) situations are the same regardless of country. Yamam has won Urban Shield in the US every year they've taken part. The numbers from active attackers in the US is astounding; there should be a desire to learn from others on how to lower those numbers. Not a poke, nor a pissing contest, but sometimes even the best need to be open to learning and adapting to new realities/threats.
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Old 9 October 2018, 13:55
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Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
Hands on experience with what? Working in an enviroment and culture that has no corresponding equivelent to the US?
Islamic terror doesn't happen here? Jihadi goals change once they enter US airspace? A suicide bomber requires different solutions in NY than in Paris or Tel Aviv?

The commonality isn't the location or culture, it's the methods of attack, and culture of the attackers, I think. Those methods were honed in Israel since the 1800's by the fedayeen, PLO, Hamas/Fatah/George Habash/etc, and Hizbullah, and because the population hosting the terrorists lives along side and among the Israeli population, counter-terror operations have occurred on a far more frequent scale than in the US, over a far longer timeline.

It doesn't mean Israelis are the best, or have it dialed in. It just means they may have a different perspective Americans can adapt to US needs, and a metric-fuckton of incident reports to pass on. Seems useful to me, but who knows. Maybe they just want to hang in Tel Aviv and bang hot Swedish beach bunnies....


Not that there's anything wrong with that.
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  #9  
Old 9 October 2018, 13:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DirtyDog0311 View Post
I didn't know America had such a shortage of domestic tactical units to train with that we have to drop coin on foreigners.
Other than transport etc., there's usually no cost for government to government cross training.
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Old 9 October 2018, 14:36
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Poison and Hoepoe,
I was challenging Poisons assertion, not the value of different perspectives. Poison, more Islamic terrorists are dead at the hands of America than Israel.

As to tactics carrying over regardless of enviroment, that's not accurate. No US LE SWAT team will have the rules of engagment latitude they do.
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Old 9 October 2018, 14:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hoepoe View Post
Hostage and terror (active attacker) situations are the same regardless of country. Yamam has won Urban Shield in the US every year they've taken part. The numbers from active attackers in the US is astounding; there should be a desire to learn from others on how to lower those numbers. Not a poke, nor a pissing contest, but sometimes even the best need to be open to learning and adapting to new realities/threats.
But Vanity Fair.... really?!?

I get what your saying but an Israeli Special Police unit wouldn’t be the first unit I would suggest cross training with.

Edit to add: SB said it best.... the ROE/Use of Force pose a serious issue.
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Old 9 October 2018, 14:54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
Poison and Hoepoe,
I was challenging Poisons assertion, not the value of different perspectives. Poison, more Islamic terrorists are dead at the hands of America than Israel.

As to tactics carrying over regardless of enviroment, that's not accurate. No US LE SWAT team will have the rules of engagment latitude they do.
This.
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Old 9 October 2018, 16:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
Poison and Hoepoe,
I was challenging Poisons assertion, not the value of different perspectives. Poison, more Islamic terrorists are dead at the hands of America than Israel.

As to tactics carrying over regardless of enviroment, that's not accurate. No US LE SWAT team will have the rules of engagment latitude they do.
As far as number of dead, maybe, but under completely different circumstances. The US kills were by the US military operating under wartime ROE's. The article is about an Israeli police SWAT unit, and US LE training civilian scenarios with them. US SWAT has exponentially less terrorism experience/kills than their Israeli counterparts (and US LE has vastly more experience fighting crime and other sources of violence). Civilian YAMAM unfortunately gets to operate against (and kill) Islamic terrorists every damn day, all day long. They're right next door.

I'd offer that ROE's against a suicide bomber or active shooter will not vary much at all, anywhere. The goal is the constant; stop the action as quickly as possible by nearly any means necessary (obvious collateral caveats apply). Other scenarios may vary between the countries, but I don't think that means there's nothing to learn even if ROE's differ. You can learn new methods of attack, new methods of response, mistakes others made.

Last edited by poison; 9 October 2018 at 16:17.
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  #14  
Old 9 October 2018, 22:00
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There is no maybe. It's a fact. Both inside and outside active war zones.

You introduced the subject of fighting islamic terrorists- don't try to dodge away. You also dodge the point that this group operates under a much wider latitude ROE, more akin to military, except in areas they can control, while trying to sloft off the US killing the same terrorists at a cyclic rate worldwide.

As noted, I have no issues with the article or the exposure to how others do things, even if it doesn't tranfer. My point is your standard hyperbole that seems to accompany anything that touches on anything Israel is old.

"Every damn day, all day long" Really now....
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Old 10 October 2018, 08:39
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I would jump at the chance to train with them. No doubt it would be extremely challenging and I would learn a lot. Most of it would not cross-over to my day to day job but it would help add a few ideas and techniques to my toolbox. There's assholes here just like there's assholes there, and because of the tacticool trend that was referenced in another post, people have access to more training than ever which in the wrong hands could pose more of a threat than we are used to dealing with.

ROE difference? Absolutely, unless you're dealing with an active shooter or suicide bomber like was stated above. At the end of the day if the agency is willing to spend money to send my ass somewhere for good training, I won't complain!
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Old 10 October 2018, 09:43
poison poison is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
There is no maybe. It's a fact. Both inside and outside active war zones.

You introduced the subject of fighting islamic terrorists- don't try to dodge away. You also dodge the point that this group operates under a much wider latitude ROE, more akin to military, except in areas they can control, while trying to sloft off the US killing the same terrorists at a cyclic rate worldwide.

As noted, I have no issues with the article or the exposure to how others do things, even if it doesn't tranfer. My point is your standard hyperbole that seems to accompany anything that touches on anything Israel is old.

"Every damn day, all day long" Really now....
Sorry, not trying to dodge, or make overall head count claims. Islamist terror is the main threat in Israel, and the secondary subject of the article (as YAMAM's primary objective); in the US it's crime, and so both countries LE can probably learn from the other (Israelis kind of suck at crime fighting). US LE just doesn't have the opportunity to stop suicide bombers in the act on any frequent basis, Israel does, for example. That may (which implies it also may not) be useful experience. That's all I'm trying to say.

Of course the US military is the most operational, prepared, and dangerous military in the world right now, probably by any standard. That takes nothing from YAMAM (though I'm sure there are plenty of other things to detract from YAMAM, when put up against their peers; no, they do not carry with an empty chamber, so lets preempt that argument now ).

Last edited by poison; 10 October 2018 at 09:53.
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  #17  
Old 10 October 2018, 10:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
Poison and Hoepoe,
I was challenging Poisons assertion, not the value of different perspectives. Poison, more Islamic terrorists are dead at the hands of America than Israel.

As to tactics carrying over regardless of enviroment, that's not accurate. No US LE SWAT team will have the rules of engagment latitude they do.
I get it SB and am not challenging either one of you BUT :), this is how I see it:

SWAT is purpose specifically designed to deal with criminal situations and are very good at it. In general SWAT are good at what they do, VERY good, arguably the best.


YAMAM is purpose specifically designed to deal with terrorism, from prevention to ending attacks once started. YAMAM is very good at what they do, arguably the best.

It doesn't have to be "one winner".

This is where the complimentary training has value; they're not the same units, nor do they claim to be.

It's NOT about any specific religion or extremist based terror, it's simple mathematics - SWAT has many more officers than YAMAM, spread across a massive area with a rich exposure to criminal interventions and arrests; YAMAM has few members spread across a small area with massive exposure to terror related operations which paint it anyway you want, fortunately for the US, SWAT has not been required to deal with that at the same frequency.

Regarding legal and cultural limitations, absolutely what works in the ME will not work in the US, simply as it's not backed by law and legislation, but limitation is specific to the "prevention" of attacks, specifically the neutralization of bad guys prior to the attack. However, where YAMAM can (and apparently is) enriching SWAT capabilities is in the realm of reaction to attacks or what is (so very incorrectly) called "active shooter" attacks in the US. It doesn't matter if the attacker is a follower of an Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist based religion or is an atheist; once the attack starts, it needs to be ended decisively and quickly whether the attacker is wearing a kaffiyeh or a school bag - and this is where YAMAM outshines SWAT, not because their dicks are bigger, simply because the doctrine and tactics have been designed for it and it's way more than the door kicking aspect, it's the strategy of rapid response and not only the tactics once arriving on scene.

Being an Israeli working globally, I have way too often come across the knee jerk reaction of "just another Israeli" or "it's Israeli so it must be the 'best' " and the best one "but it isn't Israel here" attitude but the bottom line is, in some areas Israeli doctrine and tactics shine and with some tweaking for the local landscape, lives would be saved if egos were put aside instead of (in general) trying to invent "new" ways to deal with problems that Israel has been dealing with daily for decades, and is still honing.

H
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  #18  
Old 10 October 2018, 15:33
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Sign....
Once again, I'm not debating the merits of cross exposure. I questioned an assertion that was not correct. In subsequent posts I see more assertions that that appear loosely related to fact, but at this point it's like debating with the Brits who have it figured out too....

Meatpaws, seprate from an active shooter, if you think there's no ROE difference even with the conditions you listed, check with your mayor, chief and DA and get back to us.
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  #19  
Old 10 October 2018, 16:47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silverbullet View Post
Meatpaws, seprate from an active shooter, if you think there's no ROE difference even with the conditions you listed, check with your mayor, chief and DA and get back to us.
I guess I should have made my statement a bit more clearly, I am not debating that there's a massive difference in ROE. I'd find myself in federal court in a heartbeat if I conducted business the same as the Israelis. I listed active shooter or a suicide bomber as the likely scenarios where our ROE would be remotely similar. I probably shouldn't even have added suicide bomber response because I'm unsure if my S.O. even has policy regarding that issue.

Food for thought, I should follow up on that. Thanks SB
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Old 11 October 2018, 18:24
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We had a couple YAMAM bomb/EOD guys do some suicide bomber-specific training with my team and our EOD techs a couple years ago. Their perspective and experience was valuable. The training was limited in scope to the one topic.
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