Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > Law Enforcement

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 16 December 2017, 15:06
NoChai NoChai is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: NC
Posts: 206
Not LEO but what I saw was incredible restraint on the part of the officer that was on the ground (maybe it was out of fear of prosecution?). He definitely worked up some escalation of force ladder, be it his own or the department's. From what I gathered, he picked up on the verbiage, as some of you have mentioned already, and realized that he was in a bad situation but not necessarily a life threatening one.

When his backup showed up (queue mach 2 drive past) it seemed like both officers were willing to deescalate the situation but the suspect wanted no part of that. Not sure if it warranted a shoot or not. Tough decision to make, especially on the spot.

If this does get legal traction, I'd expect to see, at minimum, a torn jury but most likely acquittal (forgive me if my legal terms are off, I try to stay out of court!), based solely on reasonable doubt. He obviously didn't come there to murder that guy, though it did rapidly turn into a deadly shoot.

My inexperienced opinion, which is about the same as the jury will have, is that it's a clean shoot, even if it wasn't the most desirable outcome.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 16 December 2017, 15:12
meatpaws meatpaws is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Georgia
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferryman View Post
Why? I'm not a LEO or close to it, but it looked like a clean shoot to me. What idiot charges a cop like that and doesn't expect to get shot?

If this was not a lethal force encounter, please, school me.
The guy was certainly begging for an ass whipping. He even probably qualified for deadly force from the first deputy. The first deputy (Sean Youngward) was ridiculously overmatched. Looking from the outside in, contact was made and instantly turned ugly. Youngward was chased down the hallway by perp (Pierre) and you can hear the loud pop as Youngward deploys his Taser. Not surprisingly, the Taser was ineffective. Instead of reloading his cartridge, Youngward keeps the Taser pointed at Pierre and continues backpedaling. Youngward is chased outside, pulls his Asp and continues his retreat. I think he got one or two halfway decent strikes and then gets bitch-slapped to the ground. Pierre takes his foot, kicks him a few times and Youngward tries negotiating and swatting with his Asp.

Backup (Steven Briggs) arrives and orders Pierre to let Youngward go. He either has a Taser or his gun out, I can't really tell which. He fumbles with his equipment, still not going hands-on, and pulls his gun. Pierre releases Youngward and goes after Briggs.

If you watch closely, Briggs' first shot is way low, either it was an AD or a warning shot. I don't know of any LE agencies that authorize warning shots, but it is what it is. It almost looked like the first shot startled Briggs and he fired two more shots which sent Pierre to the ground.

Florida state law regarding deadly force mirrors Georgia, where I work. Deadly force is authorized to protect you or someone else from the threat of death or great bodily harm. Was Youngward being threatened by great bodily harm while he was on the ground? He probably thought so. We will probably never know why he didn't shoot Pierre. Maybe Pierre destroyed his OODA loop. Maybe he locked up. Maybe he thought if he pulled his gun, Pierre would take it away and shove it up his ass. Again, I'll do anything I can to keep from dying on my back like that. Youngward was absolutely compromised and I wouldn't have doubted his reasoning at all if he had unloaded his magazine on Pierre.

But I am not liking Briggs' decisions. Pierre had let Youngward go by the time Briggs shot him. I don't understand why he didn't deploy a Taser. I don't understand why he didn't hit Pierre with his baton. I'm playing MMQB from the comfort of my sofa. But I have been doing this job for awhile, and have been in a few nasty situations during my deployments. The whole situation just smells bad to me and a lot of more seasoned officers that I trust.

If the case is sent to the grand jury in Florida as a bad shoot, it will probably be no-billed. Pierre's "family" has no doubt come out of the woodwork and are probably interviewing attorneys as we speak for a civil case. They will probably be handed a decent sum by the county for their share of the ghetto lottery.

That's my .02
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 16 December 2017, 20:23
Ferryman's Avatar
Ferryman Ferryman is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Port Orchard, WA
Posts: 541
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatpaws View Post

That's my .02
Money well spent! Thanks for the perspective.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 16 December 2017, 21:02
Chucko Chucko is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Hohenwald, TN.
Posts: 124
Not a LEO here but to me it seems cop 1 nonchalantly strolls down the hallway without considering any situational awareness. He entered the lions den and shortly got chased out by the suspect. In my opinion, he should have been dropped on this side of the hallway, but if cop 1 missed that opportunity to subdue the suspect and was chased down the hall to the far end it should have ended there. I think cop 1 has to hit the gym a little bit more. Of course the suspect must have thought he was invincible or he was convinced all cops will roll over like cop 1, but Cop 2 wasn't like him. Cop 1 should have drilled him at least while he was playing with his foot.

I am glad I am not a LEO or I would maybe be in jail by now.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 17 December 2017, 13:49
meatpaws meatpaws is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Georgia
Posts: 70
At the risk of sounding obsessive, I showed the video to my wife last night and noticed something that slightly eases my mind about the whole thing.

Briggs (Deputy 2) comes out of the hallway with his gun drawn. I guess he observed Pierre was unarmed and attempted to reholster his gun. Pierre kicks Youngward and starts dragging him away again, and Briggs draws his gun again.

In my opinion the thing still looks bad but I like that Briggs assessed the situation and seemed to consider going hands-on.

I’ll shut up now, I just felt I needed to share my mistake.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 17 December 2017, 14:08
Whitebean54's Avatar
Whitebean54 Whitebean54 is offline
Time is a flat circle
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: 3rd world in the 1st world
Posts: 2,624
Use of Lethal force= Threat of Serious bodily injury or death.

I'm not seeing either.
__________________
"Somewhere, theres a skeleton, a book sack and a log with a fat girls signature " Jumpcut

" a world class ass-clown who is running this jack-assery version of laser tag" USMC_ANGLICO
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 17 December 2017, 15:21
Five-O's Avatar
Five-O Five-O is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,068
It’s easier to argue the officer on the ground had justification for deadly force. Bigger stronger suspect (yes relative size and strength matters) already knocked smaller officer to the ground and was continuing to assault him. I have difficulty understanding why the second officer didn’t just tackle the suspect and take things from there. Simply viewing that video might not answer the obvious questions. It appears there were other options rather than deadly force.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 17 December 2017, 18:21
DuckMarshal's Avatar
DuckMarshal DuckMarshal is offline
Animal Tamer
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: U.S.
Posts: 1,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
Use of Lethal force= Threat of Serious bodily injury or death.

I'm not seeing either.
Agreed. I would expect the back-up officer to quickly evaluate the necessary force needed, holster up, and take the suspect off his feet. Iím not finding fault with the initial contact officer. Sometimes bad shit just happens to you and he tried several different tools at his disposal with no luck. He lknew back-up was coming and knew he wasnít in a lethal force encounter and that more officers should be able to handle the suspect. He was scared no doubt but IMO made reasonably good use of force decisions.

It will be interesting to hear the lethal force justification used by the back-up officer.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 17 December 2017, 18:21
DuckMarshal's Avatar
DuckMarshal DuckMarshal is offline
Animal Tamer
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: U.S.
Posts: 1,962
Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-O View Post
Itís easier to argue the officer on the ground had justification for deadly force. Bigger stronger suspect (yes relative size and strength matters) already knocked smaller officer to the ground and was continuing to assault him. I have difficulty understanding why the second officer didnít just tackle the suspect and take things from there. Simply viewing that video might not answer the obvious questions. It appears there were other options rather than deadly force.
Agree 100%.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 17 December 2017, 20:03
justamedic justamedic is offline
Very Deplorable
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: LV
Posts: 1,172
I'm just glad I didn't go into Law Enforcement this day in age.
Shit on no matter what you do.

Be safe out there guys.
__________________
"Double tap is a myth. Shoot until the threat changes shape or catches fire. Only then will your enemy know true peace." - Dali Lama

Last edited by justamedic; 17 December 2017 at 20:09.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 17 December 2017, 20:54
Fu King Lawyer Fu King Lawyer is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: ...
Posts: 1,074
Quote:
Originally Posted by meatpaws View Post
If the case is sent to the grand jury

That's my .02
SOP is not to "call" the OIS... Just gather the facts and let the GJ decide.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/multimedia/...462834653.html


http://wfla.com/2017/12/10/video-sho...-fatally-shot/
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 17 December 2017, 22:02
meatpaws meatpaws is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Georgia
Posts: 70
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fu King Lawyer View Post
SOP is not to "call" the OIS... Just gather the facts and let the GJ decide.

https://www.nbcmiami.com/multimedia/...462834653.html


http://wfla.com/2017/12/10/video-sho...-fatally-shot/
Good deal, thanks for the correction! Makes total sense.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 19 December 2017, 19:44
FinsUp's Avatar
FinsUp FinsUp is offline
Aww F**K it
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Middle Earth
Posts: 2,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Five-O View Post
Itís easier to argue the officer on the ground had justification for deadly force. Bigger stronger suspect (yes relative size and strength matters) already knocked smaller officer to the ground and was continuing to assault him. I have difficulty understanding why the second officer didnít just tackle the suspect and take things from there. Simply viewing that video might not answer the obvious questions. It appears there were other options rather than deadly force.
100% agree with your statement.
__________________
One of the fundamental truths of the universe is that there isn't anything that cannot be improved with the addition of pirates, ninjas, midgets or monkeys.

For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Romans 13:4
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 22 December 2017, 20:25
foxcolt13 foxcolt13 is offline
Moving Target
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,843
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fubar View Post
Props to the idiot for taking it right to the two cops. He was bitch slapping them around. While that does deserve an old fashioned butt kicking by the cops in return, I don't think it should escalate to being shot. Easy to arm chair, but why TF didn't they tazer his ass?
he was tazered
__________________
Lost one to lost three......are you lost too.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 22 December 2017, 22:47
Fubar's Avatar
Fubar Fubar is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Fork Ranch
Posts: 3,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxcolt13 View Post
he was tazered
I strongly disagree with you foxcolt13. ***Edited for cross thread points.***

Oh wait.... As someone who has followed the thread I'm perfectly aware that the suspect had been tased. I've actually been aware of the fact the suspect was tased for several days now. You are correct in AssUming I wasn't when I made my initial post. I find it interesting that you feel it necessary to correct me several days later. I want to thank you for taking the time out of your day in an effort to make me look foolish - or to correct me. Whatever. All you accomplished was making yourself look petty. I appreciate the softball that you just provided. Merry Christmas.

BTW - who the fuck do you think you are? Fuck off you little emotional ball of shit.
__________________
"The nice thing about Twitter, in the old days when I got attacked it would take me years to get even with somebody, now when Iím attacked I can do it instantaneously, and it has a lot of power. You see some genius statements on Twitter. You see some statements coming out which are Ernest Hemingway times two." - The Trumpmeister
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 22 December 2017, 23:06
foxcolt13 foxcolt13 is offline
Moving Target
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 1,843
Merry Christmas
__________________
Lost one to lost three......are you lost too.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 22 December 2017, 23:41
Fubar's Avatar
Fubar Fubar is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: South Fork Ranch
Posts: 3,593
Quote:
Originally Posted by foxcolt13 View Post
Merry Christmas
__________________
"The nice thing about Twitter, in the old days when I got attacked it would take me years to get even with somebody, now when Iím attacked I can do it instantaneously, and it has a lot of power. You see some genius statements on Twitter. You see some statements coming out which are Ernest Hemingway times two." - The Trumpmeister
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:52.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
SOCNET