Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > Law Enforcement

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 8 December 2017, 18:00
usmc_3m's Avatar
usmc_3m usmc_3m is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: PR of Kali
Posts: 894
Daniel Shaver video released after officer acquitted

Surprisingly, I could not find a thread on this topic in this forum.

Warning - probably NSFW.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.a48eecdd3132

Man, I am torn on this one. Yes, the guy did not follow the exact orders he was given. But was there not some better way to handle this situation? No immediate threat - initial compliance. Other officers were present. The guy is clearly scared shitless. The officer's very aggressive commands... - and from my (inexperienced) perspective - pretty challenging orders to follow if the dude is scared out of his senses. I know by the letter of the law this is probably why the officer was acquitted. But fuck me, this just feels wrong...

I have never done the job, however, so I am interested in this group's thoughts and opinions.
__________________
"He who does not punish evil commands that it be done." -- Leonardo Da Vinci
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 8 December 2017, 18:35
CV's Avatar
CV CV is offline
Ungood
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: US
Posts: 7,506
I'm not torn at all. That kid was murdered. No immediate threat, was compliant with commands, and was put face down on the floor with arms extended. What would prevent the officer from cuffing him at that point?
__________________
It's a hipster filter. Keeps your kind out. -Jimbo
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 8 December 2017, 18:48
Cujo's Avatar
Cujo Cujo is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Arizona
Posts: 523
He had a partner, who controlled the other suspect. Suspect in question was at a disadvantage. He could have proceeded forward to make the arrest. No question.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 8 December 2017, 19:57
MakoZeroSix's Avatar
MakoZeroSix MakoZeroSix is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NC
Posts: 7,877
I just made my 7 and 10 year old daughters watch that and explained to them that the police are not their friends and to never trust them or speak to them.
__________________
Quote:
there’s nothing in our country anymore that seems to suggest that selfless service to the nation is not only appropriate, but required.”
- General John F. Kelley
19 Oct 2017
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 8 December 2017, 19:58
justamedic justamedic is offline
Very Deplorable
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: LV
Posts: 1,166
Just saw this also on another platform... just sad.
There's no excuse why the three+ cops with long guns and tactical advantage couldn't have taken him into custody right where he was.

Awful... poor decision making leading to the death of this poor kid.
He was complaint and scared to death, then shot to death.

And I'm gonna go ahead and say this, if he was not a white kid... the outcome would have been different in public outcry and likely the courtroom.
__________________
"Double tap is a myth. Shoot until the threat changes shape or catches fire. Only then will your enemy know true peace." - Dali Lama
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 8 December 2017, 20:00
justamedic justamedic is offline
Very Deplorable
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: LV
Posts: 1,166
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
I just made my 7 and 10 year old daughters watch that and explained to them that the police are not their friends and to never trust them or speak to them.
In hindsight, he should have just laid there with his hands out.
If I ever find myself in that position I will not even move an inch... spread my shit right where I am, palms up, and wait for them to get tired of yelling and come get me. It's a shame that I have to learn that lesson at the expense of this young man.
__________________
"Double tap is a myth. Shoot until the threat changes shape or catches fire. Only then will your enemy know true peace." - Dali Lama
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 8 December 2017, 20:06
leopardprey's Avatar
leopardprey leopardprey is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 11,052
Why this officer is not in jail for murder is beyond me. Actions like this is what cause people to fear the police, not respect them. Fear is not a good thing.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Look Sharp, Act Sharp, Be Sharp - But don't cut yourself!"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 8 December 2017, 20:23
Gsniper Gsniper is offline
Shakin' the bush Boss
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,167
If I was that scared of one proned out dude who was about to cry he was so scared, I believe I'd find a new career path.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 8 December 2017, 20:30
MakoZeroSix's Avatar
MakoZeroSix MakoZeroSix is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: NC
Posts: 7,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamedic View Post
In hindsight, he should have just laid there with his hands out.
If I ever find myself in that position I will not even move an inch... spread my shit right where I am, palms up, and wait for them to get tired of yelling and come get me. It's a shame that I have to learn that lesson at the expense of this young man.
Yeah for reals. I'm just going to fake a seizure and go limp and lay there.
__________________
Quote:
there’s nothing in our country anymore that seems to suggest that selfless service to the nation is not only appropriate, but required.”
- General John F. Kelley
19 Oct 2017
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 8 December 2017, 23:39
Horned Toad's Avatar
Horned Toad Horned Toad is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: usa
Posts: 1,103
I can not believe that a jury let him of the hook on that one. I can't think of not one way to mitigate his actions.
__________________
75th RGR RGT
RS 03/92
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 9 December 2017, 00:04
Wes's Avatar
Wes Wes is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: On the move
Posts: 1,381
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
I just made my 7 and 10 year old daughters watch that and explained to them that the police are not their friends and to never trust them or speak to them.
Would you say the same thing to your daughters about the SOCNET LEOs? I think the officer in the video is a coward and a murderer and should never have held a badge. He obviously cannot think properly in stressful situations. He should have gone to prison for the rest of his life based on what I watched. There were a hundred different ways to have gone about that and he did almost everything wrong. I hate armchair QBing officers, but damn. I literally just finished an Active Shooter course earlier today. There was zero stimulus (shots fired) and zero indicators (brass [shell casings]) around to indicate that this was a dynamic situation. There was no reason for him to have the guy move as he did, and that led to his murder.

Anyway, I really hate to hear that you said that to your daughters. I can fully understand your take on the situation, but given the number of LEOs that aren't spineless and can use their brains in stressful situations... painting us all with that broad brush could have a negative impact in the future if your daughters ever do need LEO assistance and they are afraid to come to us.
__________________
"Welcome to SOCNET. We know you. - Polypro
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 9 December 2017, 00:08
DC's Avatar
DC DC is offline
Holy Diver
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: West Coast
Posts: 924
We own this. We encouraged this type of policing for decades in the war on drugs and we feed our kids violence and callousness right out of the womb. And then we scratch our heads.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 9 December 2017, 01:11
BulletAim BulletAim is offline
On the Extract Bird
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: South Carolina
Posts: 397
Quote:
Originally Posted by CV View Post
was compliant with commands, and was put face down on the floor with arms extended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gsniper View Post
If I was that scared of one proned out dude who was about to cry he was so scared, I believe I'd find a new career path.
And the kid was crying. He was so scared that he fell over. The cop had a fucking rifle for fuck sake. I have all respect for law enforcement but this cop is fortunate that anyone like me hasn't gotten their hands on him. I agree with Gsniper. 100% on you with that one.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 9 December 2017, 01:12
Maverick's Avatar
Maverick Maverick is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: DFW
Posts: 1,584
Quote:
Originally Posted by CV View Post
I'm not torn at all. That kid was murdered. No immediate threat, was compliant with commands, and was put face down on the floor with arms extended. What would prevent the officer from cuffing him at that point?
This.

This cop needs to go to jail for a very long time. I can't believe he was acquitted.
__________________
"Improving team morale, one compliment at a time."
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 9 December 2017, 01:22
CB's Avatar
CB CB is offline
BT,WBTWC
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Clarksville, Tennessee
Posts: 1,517
Philip “Mitch” Brailsford

Cowardly asshole.
May you live forever.

This is the coward that etched "You're Fucked" on his AR-15, but the judge wouldn't let the jury hear that. (And how did the murder weapon not get introduced into evidence? Was the DA attempting to throw the case?)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 9 December 2017, 02:54
Five-O's Avatar
Five-O Five-O is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,059
Reminded me somewhat of the Albuquerque NM shooting of a homeless man a few years ago.

Bad shoot. Sad and difficult to watch.

Officers were called for a man with a rifle pointing it out a window of a hotel (responding officers must have thought Las Vegas...Mesa AZ isn't that far from there). So they are going into the call with that mentality I would ASSUME. Once in contact with the suspect they should have realized the situation for what it was. It is difficult for me to gauge the SGT giving verbal commands. At one moment he was very calm and collected, giving precise commands....the next he was screaming his head off at the suspect. That does not increase compliance and surely makes other officers a little more tense. The kid could not have been more compliant with verbal commands. He did not get all the commands 100% correct but he was compliant for sure. There is a difference. The suspect was completely compliant in every way just not correctly compliant.

The "You're fucked" etching on the officers dust cover is something an air softer would have, not a professional LEO. I question the officers chain of command for allowing it if they knew of it; and I question the leadership if they did not know about it. Some may find it has no relevance to this bad shooting but I would say it calls into question the officers mindset, maturity, sensibility and common sense. It is obviously a good thing he is no longer a police officer.



That is a bit of an over reaction but I do understand why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
I just made my 7 and 10 year old daughters watch that and explained to them that the police are not their friends and to never trust them or speak to them.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 9 December 2017, 06:24
Ole crusty bastard's Avatar
Ole crusty bastard Ole crusty bastard is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Port Charlotte FL
Posts: 4,669
Hard to believe that the jurors saw that video and let the cop walk. I think the cop was as scared as the guy he killed.

I want to think a flawed individual, not training was the cause.

The civil suit will cost the city dearly.
__________________
...when in doubt...over prime.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 9 December 2017, 07:09
Purple36's Avatar
Purple36 Purple36 is offline
Swimming Upstream
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: East Coast
Posts: 9,325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wes View Post
Would you say the same thing to your daughters about the SOCNET LEOs? I think the officer in the video is a coward and a murderer and should never have held a badge. He obviously cannot think properly in stressful situations. He should have gone to prison for the rest of his life based on what I watched. There were a hundred different ways to have gone about that and he did almost everything wrong. I hate armchair QBing officers, but damn. I literally just finished an Active Shooter course earlier today. There was zero stimulus (shots fired) and zero indicators (brass [shell casings]) around to indicate that this was a dynamic situation. There was no reason for him to have the guy move as he did, and that led to his murder.

Anyway, I really hate to hear that you said that to your daughters. I can fully understand your take on the situation, but given the number of LEOs that aren't spineless and can use their brains in stressful situations... painting us all with that broad brush could have a negative impact in the future if your daughters ever do need LEO assistance and they are afraid to come to us.
The problem Wes, is that we have no idea, in the moment, whether we are dealing with a good cop or a pussy, murdetous SOB, so erring on the side of caution may be the best choice.
__________________
- Faith involves believing in the veracity of the unprovable and unobservable, whether that consists of religion or theoretical physics, which at the very subatomic level start looking rather similar. -ET1/SS Nuke
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 9 December 2017, 09:00
Proeliator 37 Proeliator 37 is offline
Army SF
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: South Central US
Posts: 78
Quote:
Originally Posted by Purple36 View Post
The problem Wes, is that we have no idea, in the moment, whether we are dealing with a good cop or a pussy, murdetous SOB, so erring on the side of caution may be the best choice.
Totally agree.

A LEO is well-advised to never trust a civilian he/she interacts with regardless of how nice they seem at the time for obvious reasons. No LEO on this website would even balk at this idea - it is a good mindset and it will help to get them home alive. But, this is a two-way relationship.

Likewise, civilians have no idea who they are dealing with when a LEO interacts with them. Yes, comply within the law. Yes, be as courteous and respectful as possible. But, NO, don't trust them. And, NO, a badge does not anyone your friend.

Last edited by Proeliator 37; 9 December 2017 at 09:26.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 9 December 2017, 10:43
Tracy's Avatar
Tracy Tracy is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Feb 1997
Location: West
Posts: 11,074
OK, here's my "arm chair quarterback", 20-20 hindsight, personal opinion:

I think that was a bad shoot. In my opinion, the officer inadvertently set up the shooting.

First, the officer was nervous. He started a monologue with the suspect, and put the onus on the suspect to process the information. How does someone maintain situation awareness of an unknown risk in front of him, while a high risk situation (cuffing another suspect) is happening to his left side?

Second, the officer started stacking up the directions (by shouting) to the suspect with promises of shooting the suspect if he didn't comply with EVERY direction he issued.

Third, anyone notice the delay by the suspect complying with the officer's instructions? The suspect was in information overload. I think alcohol had a role to play in this as well; not in impaired judgement, but slowed reaction to complying with orders.

Fourth, why did the officer make the suspect move towards him, vice having the team move to the suspect? Why not keep him proned out, legs crossed, and hands behind his head? The officer would have a good visual of the hands, the suspect can't see the officers, and the suspect's mobility is impaired.

When you combine these effects, ANY movement will result in a justifiable shooting.

Did the suspect make a move that elevated the situation to a high-risk, split-second decision? Yes. However, the suspect didn't create conditions for that decision, it was set up by the poor communications effects I outlined above.

Did the incident justify charging the officer with second degree murder? I'm not a lawyer, but I strongly disagree with the charge. I'm not privy to the events leading to the shooting, but I didn't see premeditation. I believe there is an element of negligence on the part of the officer, but I'm not sure what charges should be brought.

What I saw was an unknown risk situation, that had sufficient control, turn into an uncontrolled high-risk situation; and the officer initiated the final chain of events.

The officer started communication in full duplex mode (like a two-way telephone conversation with both parties talking simultaneously), when he should have been in half-duplex (only one person talks at a time). Then the officer went into rapid-fire simplex mode (one-way conversation). The officer didn't wait sufficiently to assess compliance with his previous direction.

More than anything else, this highlights a situational training problem.

Lastly, given attitudes in this country, I think it was dumb luck the officer wasn't convicted.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 23:52.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
SOCNET