SOCNET

Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > Law Enforcement

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 25 December 2015, 10:41
Silverbullet's Avatar
Silverbullet Silverbullet is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Bunker
Posts: 15,212
It's a given that most LEO's don't get much trigger time. Exceptions can be brought up, but that's an outlier data point.

To me, the bigger issue is that most LEO's aren't conditioned to the effects of sudden violence which further exacerbates their lack of firearms familiarity and accuracy.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 25 December 2015, 10:49
Macka's Avatar
Macka Macka is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: SOCNET-Northeast
Posts: 2,367
MA only requires, by law, the normal 50 round "Q" course, one time per year.

Many departments adhere to this. Many, including mine, don't. We shoot at least 4 times per year. And it's not just 50 round and go. We do rifles, pistols, two man drills, low light, daylight, getting in and out of a car, blues flashing, sirens going, etc.

If it's raining, too bad.
__________________
Freedom costs a Buck 0-5
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 28 December 2015, 10:28
johnnylaw johnnylaw is offline
Wolverines!
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Tejas
Posts: 671
Your department is an anomaly then, because most budgets don't allow for that kind of training due to lack of funds for ammo, overtime, etc.

Couple that with the fact that "most" cops aren't particularly gun guys or exceptional shooters and you have a potential recipe for disaster.

As a LE firearms instructor, it's difficult. We have the responsibility of training folks, a lot of who piss and moan for simply having to show up, shoot ammo that they don't have to pay out of pocket for and get paid for doing it. That's very frustrating to a guy who spends a shit load of his own money on getting the best training he can afford and paying out of pocket for his own ammo. Not to mention spending quite a few days of personal leave and vacation days to attend that training off duty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Macka View Post
MA only requires, by law, the normal 50 round "Q" course, one time per year.

Many departments adhere to this. Many, including mine, don't. We shoot at least 4 times per year. And it's not just 50 round and go. We do rifles, pistols, two man drills, low light, daylight, getting in and out of a car, blues flashing, sirens going, etc.

If it's raining, too bad.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 9 January 2016, 20:02
Pres Pres is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: DC
Posts: 14
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmueller View Post
But what are the requirements these days? Do many officers get to train? How often?
50 rd course up to 25yds quarterly (various weapons)

all our officers have the opportunity to train; how many take advantage of that opportunity is another question. unfortunately, some just see qual as a check in the box, not something they need to stay proficient at
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 9 January 2016, 20:18
EchoFiveMike's Avatar
EchoFiveMike EchoFiveMike is offline
Make a desert and call it peace.
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: back home, IVO chicago
Posts: 8,357
Chicago PD has a 30 rd qual course, once per year. They have an additional course for an off duty/alternate gun, for which they have to provide their own ammo, same course of fire.

They have an HBT(SWAT) course, which IMO is a farce, but more difficult than the qual course. Back when I frequented the CPD ranges, I was introduced to this course. So a buddy and I shot it. Perfect score. Then we shot it at 1/2 time exposure. Perfect score. Then one handed only, then weak hand only, then with some bystander's borrowed backup gun left handed... you get the idea. I'm not a pistol guy, it was sad and pathetic.

It's like making someone pull out of a parking space into a parking lot and then handing them a driver's license, wishing them 'good luck' and sending them out onto the expressway. S/F.....Ken M
__________________
"If you remember nothing else about what Iím about to consider here, remember this: the one and only reason politicians, bureaucrats, and policemen want to take your weapons away from you is so that they can do things to you that they couldnít do if you still had your weapons."ó L. Neil Smith
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 7 July 2018, 18:09
256's Avatar
256 256 is offline
Navigating
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 486
Would you rather guys get trigger-time, regardless of their skill level and give them ammo to do it. Or NOT get trigger time because they have bad habits, and hold back on giving them ammo to train on their own.

I’m catching flack (he forbid me to hand out ammo) from the senior Firearms Instructor because I chose to give out training ammo, that Officers are using to shoot on their own. My thought process being, if I empower them with ammo, maybe it’ll catch their interest and train more on their own (because of all the issues listed above). That’s my stance on it, maybe my thought process is wrong??
__________________
Kiowas are small, carrying just two people; they fly so low the two flying soldiers are practically infantrymen.

- Excerpt from Gates of Fire, Michael Yon

Last edited by 256; 7 July 2018 at 18:14. Reason: Thought process sentence added
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 7 July 2018, 18:27
Agoge Agoge is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Sparta
Posts: 7,333
Quote:
Originally Posted by 256 View Post
Would you rather guys get trigger-time, regardless of their skill level and give them ammo to do it. Or NOT get trigger time because they have bad habits, and hold back on giving them ammo to train on their own.

Iím catching flack (he forbid me to hand out ammo) from the senior Firearms Instructor because I chose to give out training ammo, that Officers are using to shoot on their own. My thought process being, if I empower them with ammo, maybe itíll catch their interest and train more on their own (because of all the issues listed above). Thatís my stance on it, maybe my thought process is wrong??
There is absolutely nothing wrong with your thought process. It's simply that administrators think with their wallets and put that before efficiency, tactics, and training.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 7 July 2018, 19:54
Gray Rhyno's Avatar
Gray Rhyno Gray Rhyno is offline
Authorized Personnel
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: NoVa
Posts: 9,563
Quote:
Originally Posted by 256 View Post
Would you rather guys get trigger-time, regardless of their skill level and give them ammo to do it. Or NOT get trigger time because they have bad habits, and hold back on giving them ammo to train on their own.

Iím catching flack (he forbid me to hand out ammo) from the senior Firearms Instructor because I chose to give out training ammo, that Officers are using to shoot on their own. My thought process being, if I empower them with ammo, maybe itíll catch their interest and train more on their own (because of all the issues listed above). Thatís my stance on it, maybe my thought process is wrong??
It depends on how they using the ammo. If they're just blasting away, with no goals or direction, it can be a waste of time & resources. Shooting like this can even (as you know) reinforce bad habits. If they're using the ammo to improve their skills on their personal time, then it makes sense to me.
__________________
"The most HSLD stuff ever taught was the basics. So-called 'advanced training' is often no more than the very fluid and expert application of those basic skills." - SOTB
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 7 July 2018, 19:57
Gsniper Gsniper is offline
Shakin' the bush Boss
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Virginia
Posts: 5,984
If you have to force a Cop to get proficient with his firearm you're pissing up a rope.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 7 July 2018, 20:10
256's Avatar
256 256 is offline
Navigating
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post
It depends on how they using the ammo. If they're just blasting away, with no goals or direction, it can be a waste of time & resources. Shooting like this can even (as you know) reinforce bad habits. If they're using the ammo to improve their skills on their personal time, then it makes sense to me.
Yep, agreed. If they say, “heading to my buddy’s Bachelor party,” go buy your own ammo, buddy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gsniper View Post
If you have to force a Cop to get proficient with his firearm you're pissing up a rope.
Yeah, that’s the struggle with cops man. They live and thrive in complacency. But, sense I know the bad things happen, I gotta try.
__________________
Kiowas are small, carrying just two people; they fly so low the two flying soldiers are practically infantrymen.

- Excerpt from Gates of Fire, Michael Yon
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 7 July 2018, 20:48
Massgrunt's Avatar
Massgrunt Massgrunt is offline
Policeman Officer
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Day shift.
Posts: 12,432
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macka View Post
MA only requires, by law, the normal 50 round "Q" course, one time per year.

Many departments adhere to this. Many, including mine, don't. We shoot at least 4 times per year. And it's not just 50 round and go. We do rifles, pistols, two man drills, low light, daylight, getting in and out of a car, blues flashing, sirens going, etc.

If it's raining, too bad.
I don't know if you've seen some of the stuff I've been doing but getting guys to go to awesome classes nearby, for free has been almost impossible.
__________________
"The real problem was being able to stick it out, to sit in an office under the orders of a wee man in a dark gray suit and look out of the window and recall the bush country, the waving palms, the smell of sweat and cordite, the grunts of the men hauling jeeps over the river crossings, the copper-tasting fears just before the attack, and the wild, cruel joy of being alive afterward. To remember, and then go back to the ledgers and the commuter train, that was impossible. He knew he would eat his heart out if it ever came to that."

- "The Dogs of War" by Frederick Forsyth
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 7 July 2018, 21:43
Macka's Avatar
Macka Macka is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: SOCNET-Northeast
Posts: 2,367
Quote:
Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
I don't know if you've seen some of the stuff I've been doing but getting guys to go to awesome classes nearby, for free has been almost impossible.
My chief will send anyone for free (OT to cover a slot might be an issue).

Are you running classes? I think you did some classes under Johnny O from Boston correct? Dude’s intense...lol

ETA We’re down to 2 quals for this year. One got cancelled for some unknown reason. Actually I know the reason.....lol.
__________________
Freedom costs a Buck 0-5

Last edited by Macka; 7 July 2018 at 21:50.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 8 July 2018, 11:23
grog18b's Avatar
grog18b grog18b is offline
Clorox bearer for SOTB
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Finally back to my 203 range
Posts: 3,630
Personal


responsibility.

If you are an LEO, and a personally responsible person, you will shoot as much as financially possible, then shoot more.

I've been on ranges where people were causing dirt geysers 5 yards in front of the target boards... IMO, they should have been fired on the spot. I've also seen people shoot the car hood while using a car for cover at the range. Same thing. Should have been fired.

If you are not professional enough and skilled enough with your primary defense tool, get a new job. No department does enough qualification shooting.


Personal


responsibility.
__________________
"....As far as "rights" are concerned... I look at them this way. I don't tell you what church to go to, and you don't tell me what kind of firearm I can own." GROG

If gun control laws controlled crime, we wouldn't need cops.
Quote:
Finally, I believe that punishing lawful gun owners by creating new, more onerous laws, and restricting Constitutionally guaranteed rights, when we already don't enforce the tens of thousands of gun laws we have on the books, is like beating your dog because the neighbor's dog shit in your yard.
"The Reaper"
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 8 July 2018, 14:02
256's Avatar
256 256 is offline
Navigating
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 486
Quote:
Originally Posted by grog18b View Post
Personal


responsibility.

Personal


responsibility.

Thereís not a whole lot of that thought process breeding itself in the LEO community. Itís easier to blame a supervisor, than look at themselves.
__________________
Kiowas are small, carrying just two people; they fly so low the two flying soldiers are practically infantrymen.

- Excerpt from Gates of Fire, Michael Yon
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 8 July 2018, 14:13
The Fat Guy's Avatar
The Fat Guy The Fat Guy is offline
The Sagacious One
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pushing string down the hall
Posts: 14,195
I think if you incorporate more training science and less "This guys a bad ass shooter.." you may get more out of it. By this I mean, if you have a budget for say ammo, shoot more frequently but use fewer rounds. Everyone is gonna shoot better after 200 rds on the range. How well do you shoot showing up and shooting from the mag that has been in your pistol since the last range session?

You all know shooting is a perishable skill. I submit that you consider the concept that shooting 50 rds 4 x a year is better than shooting 100 2 x a year. Shooting 25 rds a month or even 6 shots and two presentations (Holster and Low Ready) each day on duty is a better way to maintain a capability, once achieved. OK, this last evolution may be too lean, but somewhere between the bookends of annual and daily is a sweet spot. And as SB said, this is an easy paradigm to work into a response to sudden violence. (Car stop, sitting in a diner etc)

What about the guys that do not shoot well? Like anything else, there needs to be an improvement plan, which probably doesn't happen, I assume because he made it through the academy. Any improvement you make with a poor shooter in a 100 rd session is lost after 6 mos of not shooting. Never any money for training, lots of money to settle out of court.

Every range session, I get off my 4 wheeler turn around and present and shoot three shots at my center steel target. No warm up or stand shoot round after round after round. Present and shoot. That is the fight; present and shoot.

Clearing a house, see a bad guy, Present and shoot.
Fleeing felon, present and shoot.
Car stop and guy pulls a gun, present and shoot (and add move to cover)
The FBI says the average civilian armed encounter is three shots in three seconds, at three meters. Is there such a stat for LEO's?

Do you give surprise piss tests? Give a surprise shooting test. Go to the range and present and shoot. Back in your car and protect and serve.

We need to analyze the skill required, and the minimum required training frequency. Time to think outside the box.
__________________
No one will take better care of us, than us: Suicide Hotline: 1-800-273-8255
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 8 July 2018, 14:36
256's Avatar
256 256 is offline
Navigating
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Ohio
Posts: 486
Thumbs up

Thanks for that.

When I see the skill level of our guys at the range, it makes me cringe. So much so, Iíve requested 3-4 of the guys comes out for some personal familiarization. Theyíll be paid OT (hopefully showing we appreciate you training) and we can be there for as long or as little a time you want; looking for 8 hours extra a month from the bossís OT budget. Which heíll support, he understand this job is real, and bad things happen. I really enjoy where I work, we just have to implement a new attitude, and empower our Officers more. Trust them a little more. Happy people translates to more efficient work.

Its sad that we have to show that we appreciate them training beceuase I want them to live, but they arenít interested in training to save their own life.
__________________
Kiowas are small, carrying just two people; they fly so low the two flying soldiers are practically infantrymen.

- Excerpt from Gates of Fire, Michael Yon
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 8 July 2018, 18:02
bobmueller bobmueller is offline
Did...did I do that?
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Green Country, Oklahoma
Posts: 1,665
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
...even 6 shots and two presentations (Holster and Low Ready) each day on duty is a better way to maintain a capability, once achieved.
The PD where I grew up used to have a short range in the basement, back in the revolver days. I remember it from school tours. Seems like they shot every month or so. They took it out in the late 80s due to environmental concerns over ventilation, etc. Now the range they use is 40-ish minutes out in the county. Have to wonder how that affects their shooting regimen.
__________________
This message is a natural product. The slight variations in spelling and grammar enhance its individual character and beauty and in no way are to be considered flaws or defects.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 8 July 2018, 19:12
The Fat Guy's Avatar
The Fat Guy The Fat Guy is offline
The Sagacious One
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pushing string down the hall
Posts: 14,195
Make a game out of it. Something like have a requirement to shoot a monthly El Prez, or pick a similar drill. The El Prez has a presentation, moving the gun and a reload, throw in a requirement to shoot the first 6 from cover instead of turning to face the targets. Have a trophy for the best overall score. That is all free or nearly free. Having your whole department shoot an El Prez, clean in under 10 seconds is quite an accomplishment.

I do not believe I have ever trained any US cops to shoot, but from what I read on the Internet, if that was a bunch of SF guys, there would be a bunch of ill stated language about peoples heritage and mothers followed by some serious dress rehearsals and some boolits getting shot. That's what I read anyway.
__________________
No one will take better care of us, than us: Suicide Hotline: 1-800-273-8255

Last edited by The Fat Guy; 8 July 2018 at 19:17.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 8 July 2018, 22:16
KS11's Avatar
KS11 KS11 is offline
Reverse Apache Master
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Here and There
Posts: 2,559
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post

Clearing a house, see a bad guy, Present and shoot.
Fleeing felon, present and shoot.
Car stop and guy pulls a gun, present and shoot (and add move to cover)
+1 on the rest of your post. The above cracked me up though. Do you even Tennessee vs. Garner, bro?
__________________
A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both. --Dwight D. Eisenhower

Giving the enemy a boner is half the battle. --Jungle Recon
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 9 July 2018, 03:03
nofear's Avatar
nofear nofear is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Australia-based
Posts: 2,961
Trying not to get on my soapbox here....but I've seen "highly ethical" agencies go out of their way to qualify LEOs who:

- Commit blatant safety breaches on the range
- Take 6 attempts to pass a no-more-than-2-attempts qualification
- Refuse to carry a firearm, as they think carrying a firearm will result in it being stolen and used on them.

I've also seen agencies take 4 years to run an "annual" qualification, and use instructors who go out of their way to ruin your career if you point out opportunities for them to be better in their roles.

Granted, I'm talking Australian agencies here, but that attitude was a big driver to my walking away from Australian LE and never looking back.
__________________
"Amateurs train until they get it right. Professionals train until they can't get it wrong." - Unknown
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:10.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
© SOCNET 1996-2018