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  #21  
Old 19 July 2017, 17:40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
I'm glad SOCNET doesn't serve as a forum for speculation and uninformed armchair quarterbacking...oh...nevermind...
I don't think this is about SOCNET. I think the American people have every reason to ask why questionable deaths continue to happen at the hands of LEO's. If we just set aside every questionable death, or questionable court decision, or disallow every speculative/uninformed quarterbacking of deaths at the hands of LEO's, then government gets a pass they don't deserve.

10% of just about every walk of life has problems. I have never witnessed a group of people who lack the ability to self govern the bad 10% then LEO's.

ETA: Father, 2 brothers, and Uncle were local cops. Cousin and Grandfather were Federal LEO's. I am not averse to waiving the flag in support. What bugs me is the lack of accountability on their part.
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  #22  
Old 19 July 2017, 17:45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigi View Post
I don't think this is about SOCNET. I think the American people have every reason to ask why questionable deaths continue to happen at the hands of LEO's. If we just set aside every questionable death, or questionable court decision, or disallow every speculative/uninformed quarterbacking of deaths at the hands of LEO's, then government gets a pass they don't deserve.

10% of just about every walk of life has problems. I have never witnessed a group of people who lack the ability to self govern the bad 10% then LEO's.
If it is posted on SOCNET, it's about SOCNET. If you have "never witnessed a group of people who lack the ability to self govern the bad 10% (than) LEOs, you must not hang out with too many "groups" of people.

By all means, continue with uninformed speculation. It's pretty much what I expect when I see your name on SOCNET.
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  #23  
Old 19 July 2017, 17:55
Agoge Agoge is offline
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Originally Posted by Sigi View Post
What bugs me is the lack of accountability on their part.
You have seen where several of us on here have given examples of how we hold LEO's accountable. Do you honestly think we are lying? Are you seriously questioning our integrity? It appears that you are making a ridiculous blanket statement concerning LE. I have a meeting today concerning a LEO reporting issues about his chief. If I hadn't typed it, you would never know about it happening.

Get over the blanket statements and quit making them. It causes you to lose more credibility every time you do it.
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  #24  
Old 19 July 2017, 18:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agoge View Post
You have seen where several of us on here have given examples of how we hold LEO's accountable. Do you honestly think we are lying? Are you seriously questioning our integrity? It appears that you are making a ridiculous blanket statement concerning LE. I have a meeting today concerning a LEO reporting issues about his chief. If I hadn't typed it, you would never know about it happening.

Get over the blanket statements and quit making them. It causes you to lose more credibility every time you do it.
This is something a few shills here need to read. I am hard on LE in terms of accountability, but as has been stated before, there is plenty of investigations that happen which nobody ever hears about.
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  #25  
Old 19 July 2017, 18:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agoge View Post
Get over the blanket statements and quit making them. It causes you to lose more credibility every time you do it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
By all means, continue with uninformed speculation. It's pretty much what I expect when I see your name on SOCNET.
I understand the push back when civilians question LEO accountability. I also understand when LEO's don't want to be questioned when shooting people looks bad.

The first grab from their holster is "you don't know what happened so stop with the blanket statements." It is - and always has been - their go-to move. Now if LEO's didn't have anything to hide they wouldn't clam up upon investigation and hire lawyer per the union.

Look I am 100% in the bullpen of LEO's. My only mention here is 10% of LEO's -- like all walks of life -- are hurting the representation of good LEO's.

BUT: There have been less than 10% held accountable. It's as if you cannot and should not EVER think about taking any of the LEO's to task because civilians don't know what happened because we we weren't there.

I know of no profession where the very person who places you under arrest and sets you in a room and uses tactics that are the exact opposite of how they want to be treated, will then turn around and say "you don't have the facts - talk to my lawyer."
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  #26  
Old 19 July 2017, 18:20
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Originally Posted by Sigi View Post
I understand the push back when civilians question LEO accountability. I also understand when LEO's don't want to be questioned when shooting people looks bad.

The first grab from their holster is "you don't know what happened so stop with the blanket statements." It is - and always has been - their go-to move. Now if LEO's didn't have anything to hide they wouldn't clam up upon investigation and hire lawyer per the union.

Look I am 100% in the bullpen of LEO's. My only mention here is 10% of LEO's -- like all walks of life -- are hurting the representation of good LEO's.

BUT: There have been less than 10% held accountable. It's as if you cannot and should not EVER think about taking any of the LEO's to task because civilians don't know what happened because we we weren't there. I know of no profession where the very person who places you under arrest and sets you in a room and uses tactics that are the exact opposite of how they want to be treated, will then turn around and say "you don't have the facts - talk to my lawyer."
WOW! You simply can't get it. You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about and simply can't admit it. You have no idea of the integrity of the people you are addressing and have no idea what you are saying other than using circular reasoning. I am sincerely impressed that you no for a fact as you repeatedly state that less than 10% have been dealt with.

Good bye!
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  #27  
Old 19 July 2017, 18:22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agoge View Post
You have seen where several of us on here have given examples of how we hold LEO's accountable. Do you honestly think we are lying? Are you seriously questioning our integrity? It appears that you are making a ridiculous blanket statement concerning LE. I have a meeting today concerning a LEO reporting issues about his chief. If I hadn't typed it, you would never know about it happening.

Get over the blanket statements and quit making them. It causes you to lose more credibility every time you do it.
I read the thread. This isn't a push back against them. I don't ask you to tell me your thoughts. I am not saying LEO's don't stand tall. This response from you and gavin is understandable and heard.

I am not trying to change minds. This is my perspective based on family history of good cops.
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  #28  
Old 19 July 2017, 18:23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agoge View Post
WOW! You simply can't get it. You have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about and simply can't admit it. You have no idea of the integrity of the people you are addressing and have no idea what you are saying other than using circular reasoning. I am sincerely impressed that you no for a fact as you repeatedly state that less than 10% have been dealt with.

Good bye!
Well this is yet another example of why there is some disconnect.
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  #29  
Old 19 July 2017, 18:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB View Post
At least he was paired with another officer. In may places he would be riding solo as soon as he finished up six months ~ one year with his FTO.
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
Bold strategy.

CB raises a good point. In the vast majority of the country guys are flying solo after six months on the job.
Indeed, you're both absolutely right. I don't know what the protocol is for MPD, I'm assuming that like many departments the probationary period lasts for at least a year and the initial field training with an FTO during the initial period after graduation lasts for about 6 months.

Still, I think in a lot of instances the brass in many departments are throwing young officers into the fray without considering the ramifications of their relative inexperience. We saw it last year when the one young Chicago officer was caught on his body cam during the pursuit of a stolen Jaguar with his pistol out and resting on his lap while the vehicle was still moving, then jumping out and firing multiple shots at the vehicle while his partner was right in the line of fire. It's a wonder the other cop didn't get hit.

They also showed that same officer in the foot pursuit of that suspect (who was eventually killed) with his gun drawn and, while the weapon was still in his hand, giving another officer a boost over a locked gate to get into a back yard. I saw that vid and just shook my head, again it's a wonder he didn't shoot one of his fellow officers.

I know that in Chicago many of the youngest, least experienced officers are thrown into the worst neighborhoods, kind of a trial by fire (literally). That's due to the fact that seniority pays dividends when it comes time to bid on districts in slower, more peaceful neighborhoods. And while the mantra for a lot of veteran officers has been to not to get too caught up in the hunt, the younger officers, understandably, are hungry and proactive in their actions. That can lead to questionable judgement, based on a lot of what's been going on over the last couple of years. Although in the case of Jason Van Dyke, I think he had about 13 years on the job.

Right now, I'm betting officer Harrity wishes he had been flying solo that night.
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  #30  
Old 19 July 2017, 18:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MixedLoad View Post
This is something a few shills here need to read. I am hard on LE in terms of accountability, but as has been stated before, there is plenty of investigations that happen which nobody ever hears about.
Why is that? The public should hear about ALL of them. Don't give your detractors a chance to paint it as you "sweeping it under the rug". Embarrassing as it might be, THAT kind of openness gives the public faith that the police will hold themselves accountable. To do the right thing is not enough, you must be SEEN to do the right thing. By the time Joe Citizen has seen "cop arrested" or "cop fired" to include perp walk a few times on TV, the idea that the police cover up misdeeds by their own will change. Discourages future misbehavior as well. No quiet resignation, just total ruination, the same as any citizen with the same charges.
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  #31  
Old 19 July 2017, 19:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigi View Post
The first grab from their holster is "you don't know what happened so stop with the blanket statements." It is - and always has been - their go-to move. Now if LEO's didn't have anything to hide they wouldn't clam up upon investigation and hire lawyer per the union.
I think what's needed in these matters is uninformed speculation based on extremely limited facts, trial by media and public witch hunts by the free shit army.

How many times have notorious incidents been delightedly hashed out on this page (replete with chest beating and statements about what so and so would have done if they were the officer or suspect) with zero self accountability for wrong opinions when the facts became known? How many times have the members here tried to pick fights with the cops here by mistating our points and various straw man arguments?
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  #32  
Old 19 July 2017, 19:20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigi View Post
Blah blah blah
It appears in your rush to judgment and blanket statement making that you missed the part of of this story where a criminal investigation is being conducted in this incident by a third party agency for transparency and oversight's sake.

I realize you believe that the legal process should be completed in 48 minutes with 4 commercial breaks, but this isn't CSI-Minneapolis.
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  #33  
Old 19 July 2017, 19:22
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Noor hasn't answered any questions as of yet, and I truly doubt he'll have much to say to investigators right now. So far, the only account given has been that of his partner.

Regardless of how this case turns out, it's a real tragedy. And it's become an international incident, with the Aussie PM demanding answers.
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  #34  
Old 19 July 2017, 19:24
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Originally Posted by MixedLoad View Post
I am hard on LE in terms of accountability
I don't know a cop who's worth a shit who has any problem with that. Public trust should bring a higher degree of scrutiny and accountability. It goes with the territory, IMHO.
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  #35  
Old 19 July 2017, 19:25
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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Noor hasn't answered any questions as of yet, and I truly doubt he'll have much to say to investigators right now. So far, the only account given has been that of his partner.

Regardless of how this case turns out, it's a real tragedy. And it's become an international incident, with the Aussie PM demanding answers.
I was thinking about how this is going to affect Australian law enforcement and hinder their current efforts for more and better firearms.
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"The real problem was being able to stick it out, to sit in an office under the orders of a wee man in a dark gray suit and look out of the window and recall the bush country, the waving palms, the smell of sweat and cordite, the grunts of the men hauling jeeps over the river crossings, the copper-tasting fears just before the attack, and the wild, cruel joy of being alive afterward. To remember, and then go back to the ledgers and the commuter train, that was impossible. He knew he would eat his heart out if it ever came to that."

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  #36  
Old 19 July 2017, 19:31
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Originally Posted by Expatmedic View Post
As reported body cameras turned off.
I think, given the limited info released so far, that "body cameras not turned on yet" is more accurate. Typically they're turned on when someone gets out of the vehicle to approach a scene or make contact with someone.

Not to parse words too drastically, but I think the distinction bears notation. "Turned off" can denote a desire to hide something. They're not turned on 24/7. They get turned on under certain circumstances based on policy and law. I think we will know in time based on the investigation in this case at what time they were turned on (if they ever were) and whether the status of the cameras was consistent with the policy of the agency.
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  #37  
Old 19 July 2017, 19:39
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
I was thinking about how this is going to affect Australian law enforcement and hinder their current efforts for more and better firearms.
Best guess: it has a negative effect.

Probably won't help in Britain, either.
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  #38  
Old 19 July 2017, 19:41
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
I think what's needed in these matters is uninformed speculation based on extremely limited facts
Sure here I am under arrest due to speculation based on extremely limited facts.
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  #39  
Old 19 July 2017, 19:45
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Originally Posted by Believeraz View Post
I think, given the limited info released so far, that "body cameras not turned on yet" is more accurate. Typically they're turned on when someone gets out of the vehicle to approach a scene or make contact with someone.

Not to parse words too drastically, but I think the distinction bears notation. "Turned off" can denote a desire to hide something. They're not turned on 24/7. They get turned on under certain circumstances based on policy and law. I think we will know in time based on the investigation in this case at what time they were turned on (if they ever were) and whether the status of the cameras was consistent with the policy of the agency.
I think that's a deliberate choice of words by people who understand the distinction perfectly well.
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"The real problem was being able to stick it out, to sit in an office under the orders of a wee man in a dark gray suit and look out of the window and recall the bush country, the waving palms, the smell of sweat and cordite, the grunts of the men hauling jeeps over the river crossings, the copper-tasting fears just before the attack, and the wild, cruel joy of being alive afterward. To remember, and then go back to the ledgers and the commuter train, that was impossible. He knew he would eat his heart out if it ever came to that."

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  #40  
Old 19 July 2017, 19:47
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Originally Posted by Sigi View Post
Sure here I am under arrest due to speculation based on extremely limited facts.
Your post makes no sense but if you're referring to probable cause that's been fleshed out by the courts pretty well at this point
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"The real problem was being able to stick it out, to sit in an office under the orders of a wee man in a dark gray suit and look out of the window and recall the bush country, the waving palms, the smell of sweat and cordite, the grunts of the men hauling jeeps over the river crossings, the copper-tasting fears just before the attack, and the wild, cruel joy of being alive afterward. To remember, and then go back to the ledgers and the commuter train, that was impossible. He knew he would eat his heart out if it ever came to that."

- "The Dogs of War" by Frederick Forsyth
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