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  #81  
Old 22 July 2017, 10:59
Agoge Agoge is offline
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Originally Posted by Gray Rhyno View Post
From the perspective of a citizen, i prefer an elected sheriff, accountable to the voters. We have a county sheriff as our CLEO, and I have found him to be very responsive to what the voters want, not what the county supervisors want.
I am looking at it from an investigations point of view. I have investigated a lot of both and many times their violations don't rise to the level of being criminal, but simply unethical and/or procedurally wrong and they need to go. Elected officials end up staying while appointed have to go. As to elected officials being accountable to the their electorate...that isn't nearly as true as people think.
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  #82  
Old 22 July 2017, 13:11
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The above quoted portion of your post is the problem. There shouldn't be politically charged cases. There is already too much politics in LE...there is no need for any more.
There is always going to be politics involved in certain cases, no matter how much you try to stamp it out. Especially in larger cities.

One of the most egregious examples of this happened a few years before Richard M. Daley left office, when his nephew got into an altercation with a young man from one of my neighboring towns, ultimately resulting in the guy from the suburbs taking a tumble after being punched and hitting his head on the ground when he went down. He died not long after that.

It took almost 10 years before Daley's nephew, Richard Vanecko, wound up charged with a crime (manslaughter) and it took the appointment of a special prosecutor to get it done, since there was so many people in the CPD running interference for both Vanecko and, by extension, Daley.

It's a guarantee that if the roles had been reversed, if it had been Vanecko who went down and died as the result of the altercation, that the cops would have put on a full court press and gone after the deceased, David Koschman, with a vengeance. In fact, they probably would have pressed for a full murder charge against him.

Disgraceful, but that is the world we live in. The best you can hope to do is mitigate it with whatever you have in your toolkit.

http://projects.suntimes.com/koschma...t-for-hearing/
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  #83  
Old 22 July 2017, 15:06
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Funny how quickly accountability and investigations happen when an innocent, adorable, white girl is blasted by some idiot in blue....so odd.

Course he'll be vigorously defended by the union and protected by his brothers in blue. You can bet they'll be forthcoming in giving statements and rigorously ethical in the collection of evidence.
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  #84  
Old 22 July 2017, 15:57
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You mean like his partner who already told investigators that Noor fired a shot across him into the deceased? That kind of forthcoming statement?
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  #85  
Old 22 July 2017, 16:12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavid View Post
Funny how quickly accountability and investigations happen when an innocent, adorable, white girl is blasted by some idiot in blue....so odd.

Course he'll be vigorously defended by the union and protected by his brothers in blue. You can bet they'll be forthcoming in giving statements and rigorously ethical in the collection of evidence.
The difference is she was literally not doing anything, as compared to other "controversial" shootings like Michael Brown, Alton Sterling, Korryn Gaines, Sylville Smith, etc. etc. A bad shoot is a bad shoot regardless of color. This one looks pretty cut and dried, hence the swiftness of accountability. Or so it would seem to me.
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  #86  
Old 22 July 2017, 17:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Front_Sight_Bang View Post
The difference is she was literally not doing anything, as compared to other "controversial" shootings like Michael Brown, Alton Sterling, Korryn Gaines, Sylville Smith, etc. etc. A bad shoot is a bad shoot regardless of color. This one looks pretty cut and dried, hence the swiftness of accountability. Or so it would seem to me.
No, it can't be that. I HAS to be because of race/white privilege, don't you know?
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  #87  
Old 22 July 2017, 18:09
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Originally Posted by mdavid View Post
Funny how quickly accountability and investigations happen when an innocent, adorable, white girl is blasted by some idiot in blue....so odd.

Course he'll be vigorously defended by the union and protected by his brothers in blue. You can bet they'll be forthcoming in giving statements and rigorously ethical in the collection of evidence.
Thank you again for your insight! It's as helpful as always!
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  #88  
Old 22 July 2017, 18:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdavid View Post
Funny how quickly accountability and investigations happen when an innocent, adorable, white girl is blasted by some idiot in blue....so odd.

Course he'll be vigorously defended by the union and protected by his brothers in blue. You can bet they'll be forthcoming in giving statements and rigorously ethical in the collection of evidence.
You might want to check the news, just saying.
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  #89  
Old 23 July 2017, 13:04
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It's been a long time since I have contributed, do I need to write another introduction post?

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Originally Posted by Believeraz View Post
It's a definite problem in the workforce writ large, and we are impacted a lot more than many sectors. Interaction via digital device over face-to-face, everyone-gets-a-trophy, and a lack of focus on solving your own problems in today's youth are causing havoc via unintended consequences in the labor force. There are seminars and training events focused on training and supervising millenials in law enforcement, because how it's "always been" isn't working.
This hits close to home. I was a city cop in a busy urban area for a few years and in the last year I was hired by a somewhat rural sheriff's office. The old time long term residents here know their neighbors and communicate with them on a regular basis. The people new to the area, mostly in subdivisions, have no clue who they share an acre with. We consistently get neighborhood dispute calls (mostly noise complaints, or neighborhood kids playing in their driveways). When we talk to the complainant and ask if they have spoken with their noisy neighbor about their issue, they look at us with confusion and say "no, I just immediately called 911." It was the same as a city cop. Fewer people know how to simply communicate with the people they share oxygen with. If it cannot be complained about on Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, etc, they are lost.

RIP Ms. Damond.

For Noor, I can't imagine him avoiding charges. At worst homicide, at best, involuntary manslaughter. We are trained that we are responsible for every round we send downrange, whether it be an ND or during a shootout. I think about some of the firefights I was involved in during my OIF tours and cringe thinking about what if I had been held to the same liability standards.

I guess I am rambling. I am all for cops being held to a standard. We are fallible humans trying to support a society of fallible humans that has accepted a set of laws. Sometimes we have to enforce laws we don't necessarily agree with. There's some of us who wear the badge who should find another career. In fact there's probably quite a few.

Be safe guys.
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  #90  
Old 24 July 2017, 09:57
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Good post, meatpaws.
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  #91  
Old 24 July 2017, 10:33
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Pretty good interview/talk on NPR right now, discussing this issue and police use of deadly force.
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  #92  
Old 24 July 2017, 13:52
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
You might want to check the news, just saying.
Why would he do that? It doesn't fit his agenda.
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  #93  
Old 24 July 2017, 16:24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agoge View Post
I am looking at it from an investigations point of view.
I assumed you were, that's why I qualified my opinion.
Quote:
As to elected officials being accountable to the their electorate...that isn't nearly as true as people think.
I can only speak for the county where I live.
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  #94  
Old 26 July 2017, 15:52
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So the latest report now states that the loud sound that officer Harrity heard, the one that startled him (I have to assume it startled Noor too, but since he's not talking...) came from the victim slapping the trunk of the vehicle when she approached it, according to a search warrant on file with the Minnesota agency investigating the shooting. Perhaps they found the woman's fingerprints on the trunk when they processed the scene.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/n...726-story.html

Quote:
The search warrant obtained by Minnesota Public Radio doesn't specifically say that the woman was Justine Damond, but: "Upon police arrival, a female 'slaps' the back of the patrol squad ... After that, it is unknown to BCA agents what exactly happened, but the female became deceased in the alley."
I think it's pretty clear what happened. Noor freaked out and shot the woman.

That said, it's probably not a good idea to walk up to a squad car that is responding to a possible assault in progress and slap your hand on it in a darkened alley, with little to no lighting, even if your the person who called the police.

Who knows, maybe it's a cultural thing and that is the way Aussies get the attention of police upon their arrival to check out their complaint.

Although I doubt it.
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  #95  
Old 27 July 2017, 21:18
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Originally Posted by Spinner View Post
Who knows, maybe it's a cultural thing and that is the way Aussies get the attention of police upon their arrival to check out their complaint.

Although I doubt it.
Having attended in excess of 90,000 incidents in Australia, I feel comfortable saying that I don't recall a single incident of that happening.

My money is on her being drunk and obnoxious, as that IS a cultural norm with Australian 40-something women at night time, but that in no way justifies her being shot as a result.
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  #96  
Old 28 July 2017, 03:39
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Originally Posted by nofear View Post
Having attended in excess of 90,000 incidents in Australia, I feel comfortable saying that I don't recall a single incident of that happening.

My money is on her being drunk and obnoxious, as that IS a cultural norm with Australian 40-something women at night time, but that in no way justifies her being shot as a result.
Well, that explains why 100% of all my co-workers and friends from Aussieland that I hanged out and worked with in Thailand and Cambodia all married Thai or Khmer girls.
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  #97  
Old 28 July 2017, 09:16
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Originally Posted by nofear View Post
Having attended in excess of 90,000 incidents in Australia, I feel comfortable saying that I don't recall a single incident of that happening.

My money is on her being drunk and obnoxious, as that IS a cultural norm with Australian 40-something women at night time, but that in no way justifies her being shot as a result.
You pretty much described all drunk women.
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  #98  
Old 29 July 2017, 08:27
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You pretty much described all drunk women.
Probably because Australia is full of them.

I was having this conversation with another former cop a couple of weeks ago. My worst fights as a cop was always with drunken / high white women. No logical though process, no ability to be talked down, and they always go for the kill. My only physical scars are, again, from drunken / high white women.

So, if this "victim" was drunk...she probably would not have been any angel.

Again, that fact alone does not justify her getting shot. Just adding to the picture of "black refugee cop shoots beautiful white woman".
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  #99  
Old 29 July 2017, 09:46
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^ Trust me worst people I dealt with as a jailer were drunk females. I'd take someone on PCP over a drunk broad.
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  #100  
Old 20 March 2018, 22:58
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Update: Officer Noor has been charged with 3rd degree murder (Murder - 3rd Degree - Perpetrating Eminently Dangerous Act and Evincing Depraved Mind) and 2nd degree manslaughter (Manslaughter - an Degree - culpable Negligence Creating Unreasonable Risk).

He's turned himself in and is still in custody in lieu of a $500k bond.

Minneapolis Star-Tribune article here. They have a link to several other documents including the charging document.
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