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  #101  
Old 2 July 2015, 10:21
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I'm not sure what he did would fall in the "grey area". But that is irrelevant.

For many OGAs, the poly is not used only to see if you have done anything illegal, but, also, it is a means to see if you can admit to your "mistakes" when questioned. If you can do that you would be hard to extort and thus a good candidate for a position that may be subject to targeting for extortion.
At least that was what my new boss told me after I passed my 1.5 day long poly (and passed).
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  #102  
Old 2 July 2015, 10:55
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Red face LOL!

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Originally Posted by PACE View Post
I'm not sure what he did would fall in the "grey area". But that is irrelevant.

For many OGAs, the poly is not used only to see if you have done anything illegal, but, also, it is a means to see if you can admit to your "mistakes" when questioned. If you can do that you would be hard to extort and thus a good candidate for a position that may be subject to targeting for extortion.
At least that was what my new boss told me after I passed my 1.5 day long poly (and passed).
Would they be upset about the geese I was training to attack certain people?
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  #103  
Old 2 July 2015, 16:13
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LOL

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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
Would they be upset about the geese I was training to attack certain people?
Only you could think to train geese as a weapon.
The OGAs probably wouldn't GAS.

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We need to get together.
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  #104  
Old 2 July 2015, 16:22
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Would they be upset about the geese I was training to attack certain people?
Damn Canadian geese are mean...and they have claws on there webbed feet!!!
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  #105  
Old 2 July 2015, 16:48
Gsniper Gsniper is offline
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  #106  
Old 3 July 2015, 06:17
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Seems really simple to me. You take a poly, and if a question gets asked that the answer "yes" could mean you go to jail, then the answer is "no". The end.
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  #107  
Old 3 July 2015, 08:19
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Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
Seems really simple to me. You take a poly, and if a question gets asked that the answer "yes" could mean you go to jail, then the answer is "no". The end.
If you answer "no" it will likely show "inconclusive" or "deception indicated" which then turns into either a followup interview or interrogation...so even "no" isn't very helpful. A friend of mine has just suffered through a day long, post-polygraph interrogation for a 3 letter agency...and he may lose his job and he reportedly did nothing criminal, and in fact had self reported his actions. Polygraphers are NOT your friend and they are NOT there to help you "clear things up" or "get beyond" the issue. There are agency's whose polygraphers are rewarded for admissions, rather than for straight up black and white poly's, which f$@^ing infuriates and disgusts me as a former CI professional. I think if you have done and are hiding something that could result in prison time...it's probably better to avoid taking a polygraph-or certainly a lifestyle poly. This may limit your employment in certain places, but I imagine the Major regrets applying for that job now. The actions he is accused of indicate a certain amount of guilt (burying and then burning a body), as opposed to if they'd just shot the man and left.
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  #108  
Old 3 July 2015, 08:29
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Originally Posted by Purple36 View Post
If you answer "no" it will likely show "inconclusive" or "deception indicated" which then turns into either a followup interview or interrogation...so even "no" isn't very helpful. A friend of mine has just suffered through a day long, post-polygraph interrogation for a 3 letter agency...and he may lose his job and he reportedly did nothing criminal, and in fact had self reported his actions. Polygraphers are NOT your friend and they are NOT there to help you "clear things up" or "get beyond" the issue. There are agency's whose polygraphers are rewarded for admissions, rather than for straight up black and white poly's, which f$@^ing infuriates and disgusts me as a former CI professional. I think if you have done and are hiding something that could result in prison time...it's probably better to avoid taking a polygraph-or certainly a lifestyle poly. This may limit your employment in certain places, but I imagine the Major regrets applying for that job now. The actions he is accused of indicate a certain amount of guilt (burying and then burning a body), as opposed to if they'd just shot the man and left.
Well there you go. He self reported, right? Hence the follow up grilling. If all they got on you is their voodoo box saying "deception indicated", they can just keep asking you about it, and you just keep saying no. They can't arrest you for that. All they can do is decide to not give you the job.

I mean it is hard to know what they would consider prison worthy. Everybody has bent/broken the rules to some extent for operational nessecity, but how are you supposed to know where the line is that triggers them going after you legally?
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  #109  
Old 3 July 2015, 18:10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
Seems really simple to me. You take a poly, and if a question gets asked that the answer "yes" could mean you go to jail, then the answer is "no". The end.
I've said it before. Best advice I ever got on polygraphs (having been the subject of a few) I got from an Army CW4 polygrapher - "if you're going to lie, lie consistently".

The poly is an investigation but it's not admissible in court so when you go DI it only turns out one of three ways:

1. You come back again, different day, different polygrapher, and you pass - because it's very scientific don't you know and surely isn't based on the opinion of the polygrapher.

2. You say "take this shit off me", get up and leave.

3. You say "wellll, there's some stuff I didn't tell you before" -- BINGO!!!

You signed a rights warning at the beginning of the exam so while the poly itself isn't admissible, everything you say is.

I've done 1 & 2 above. Never done #3 because, well, advice from an old warrant officer...they usually know what they're talking about.
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  #110  
Old 3 July 2015, 18:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
Well there you go. He self reported, right? Hence the follow up grilling. If all they got on you is their voodoo box saying "deception indicated", they can just keep asking you about it, and you just keep saying no. They can't arrest you for that. All they can do is decide to not give you the job.
Exactly. The poly I walked out on was one of those. About 7 years after retirement (mil), I was consulting in the commercial market, and the .com bubble burst. I had a couple offers in hand but the company I worked for had a few government contracts and came asking if any of us had ever had a clearance before. "Why yes, a big fat one with polygraphs and everything". So they started the process to get me cleared again, which included a lifestyle poly.

Long story short, they ran a couple of tests and we got into that "the poly says you're lying" so after the second go round I told the polygrapher we were done. I thought she was going to have a stroke. Apparently that doesn't happen much but I was making a pretty good living without any help from the government and their security clearance industry so I walked away and accepted one of the other offers.

F*** polygraphs, f*** polygraphers, f*** security clearances. I had enough of that secret squirrel shit when I was on active duty. Haven't had more than a secret clearance for the past 15 years and don't really see any need for that to change.
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  #111  
Old 4 July 2015, 14:59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
Well there you go. He self reported, right? Hence the follow up grilling. If all they got on you is their voodoo box saying "deception indicated", they can just keep asking you about it, and you just keep saying no. They can't arrest you for that. All they can do is decide to not give you the job.

I mean it is hard to know what they would consider prison worthy. Everybody has bent/broken the rules to some extent for operational nessecity, but how are you supposed to know where the line is that triggers them going after you legally?
Well yes, in this case I agree with you-absolutely better than admitting to something that could get you charged or kicked out. My point is that it's better to not go into a poly if you have something serious to hide. But if you do go into one and something pops up...only you can incriminate yourself and as you and Cedsall pointed out; it usually means that you just don't get the job.

They will say they are there to help you and they will minimize and attempt to give you rationalizations...but don't be fooled, that is merely a technique, they don't believe any of what they are saying...they're just trying to make it easier for you to make an admission.
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  #112  
Old 4 July 2015, 15:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix
If all they got on you is their voodoo box saying "deception indicated", they can just keep asking you about it, and you just keep saying no. They can't arrest you for that. All they can do is decide to not give you the job....
Exactamundo. Poly's are not admissible as evidence for convicting of a crime, and sure as fuck not admissible if the only thing that is shown is POSSIBLE deception to a question(s).

Can you lose the job you had before you went to take the poly for the new job? Maybe, I don't know. I imagine you could possibly lose specific types of clearance -- again I don't know.

What I do know is that if you think your past harbors some silly shit that could get you arrested or investigated, then don't apply for jobs that are going to place you in the position of having to answer questions of this sort. Furthermore, don't fuck over people that trusted you with not telling the fucking world about X event -- ASSuming you ever gave a shit about them to begin with....
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  #113  
Old 4 July 2015, 15:40
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I ran polygraph tests for many years. Attended just about every school available to mil members, including FBI and several state courses. This case stinks.
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  #114  
Old 12 July 2015, 11:56
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I see this situation differently than many here. Assuming the sources are correct and he admitted to the killing, he’s gotten off very easy. Forget losing an award, he could have been locked up for a long time based on what he admitted to. His polygraph confessing wasn’t “leaked.” It was forwarded for investigation as a matter of process. Likely, he could have been charged and prosecuted based solely on what he himself admitted to (it’s pretty hard to put up a defense when you are your main accuser). My guess is that rather than a witch-hunt, people went out of their way to avoid charging him. Because of this, I don’t think we’re going to be hearing Golsteyn openly criticizing this outcome. If anything, he is hoping that the publicity dies down along with the potential for him to be charged.

One thing to keep in mind is, even if you think his actions in Afghanistan were justified, he made choices later on that got his teammates rapped up in an investigation that put them all in legally and ethically precarious positions.

On a side note: the policy that allows the SF Tab to be revoked is stupid and should be ended.
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  #115  
Old 12 July 2015, 17:38
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If the charges against the Captain were used in the past, I think a whole bunch of the heroes we grew up around in the 50's and 60's could have been accused of crimes and we could well have lost the war. Maybe I am amoral, but I will never accuse this man , the memory of the Marine urinating on the bodies is still fresh in my mind. Our nation has failed them both.
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  #116  
Old 15 October 2018, 22:47
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Originally Posted by magician View Post
Oh, yeah! I forgot about him!
Was he the guy that stepped put of the aircraft at night with nods at about 20 and 20?
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  #117  
Old 21 October 2018, 12:36
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B Company Commander

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Was he the guy that stepped put of the aircraft at night with nods at about 20 and 20?
No, that was CPT John Cray. He was the B Company Commander. CPT Baughman had A Company.
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