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  #21  
Old 21 September 2017, 23:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northwesttech View Post
I don't have the .45 Shield, but I do have a .40 that I bought around the time they first came out. It constantly had FTF, both during firing and from inserting a fresh mag and pressing the slide release. It also broke a recoil spring and carrying it without the mag release covered in a holster, rusted the mag release button.

I sent it back to S&W three times. The third time they replaced the slide and the barrel and it's ran pretty much flawless for more than a few hundred rounds. I always order holsters to cover the mag release now as I'm a sweaty bastard, regardless of gun.

For me the .40 Shield is more accurate than my XDS in .45 but I'm not on the level as most on this board. The XDS seems more finicky for trigger finger placement for me. It likes the finger pad as opposed to closer to the first knuckle.
This is what I'm talking about. And I'm not saying that any manufacturer hasn't had their share of escapes from QC where things don't work as well as engineers believed based on "the numbahs". The Gen 4 line of Glock 19s had some issues with extractors and extractor springs when they first rolled the line out so they had to adjust their parts to correct it. The problem with the Shields, in my narrow window of experience, is they're usually bought as a CCW gun. Users generally aren't putting the round counts through them to find these failure points. Something you'd see early on with a duty gun model being widely adopted, may take a good while to get enough feedback for them to make a change.

Combine that with the S&W apparent favoritism of MIM parts and most of the issues I've seen closely match yours as listed. Had you continued to fire it without them totally replacing a critical part of the gun, I'd bet my hat that the next failure would have been the takedown pin breaking off.

It fuckin blows.

I'll admit I have a little bit of a grudge towards their customer service as well. They offered to replace the takedown lever/pins we'd broken. We could send them all in, in their current broken state if brokenness, with an 8-10 week turnaround. Or they'd mail us a new one for each gun, but it'd be the same Maybe It's Metal material as the chincy broken ones. Or...OR!!! We could buy the upgraded tooled steel ones at factory cost, since it's a well known point of failure. Hmmm. If you know it happens enough to have the proper replacement parts on hand...

Anyway. Shit breaks. All guns will, given ample use, have parts that fail. For this to happen on as many guns under the 2k round counts isn't the sort of parts life that makes me moist with confidence towards any gun regardless of the manufacturer.


Finally, and this could be my incorrect understanding of what you wrote, but the XDS on XD line has the trigger safety tab like the common glock trigger, VP9, Steyer, etc. I'm not sure how it changes your trigger pull and follow through though, as you should be using the center of your finger pad with a straight back pull.

The way you describe your preference of using the surface closer to your knuckle is how you'll muscle the muzzle off target in the final stages of trigger pull. You have groups pretty consistently to the right of your target?
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  #22  
Old 22 September 2017, 16:14
northwesttech northwesttech is offline
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SOW_331,
I think my issue between the two guns is either gun shape or my personal issues of not shooting enough. With the Shield I just hold it how it feels most comfortable and its usually pretty accurate (with my usual anticipating recoil causing low and to the left shots occasionally). With the XDS I hit a bit low if I don't focus on only using the pad of my trigger finger. Not sure why but once I tried the different finger placement, my accuracy finally started to improve with the XDS, but still with the hitting to the left a bit with anticipating recoil.

Regardless, I need to start some more dry firing with both guns. And I don't shoot as much as I'd like living in a metro area vs. growing up in a rural area. Driving an hour and a half each way to go shoot in the woods without the other idiots nearby is my norm, so it doesn't happen as often as I'd like.

Thanks for the input.
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  #23  
Old 23 September 2017, 22:43
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  #24  
Old 23 September 2017, 23:12
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Tell me about your sights???? Are those the factory sights?
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  #25  
Old 23 September 2017, 23:46
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Tell me about your sights???? Are those the factory sights?
They are the factory sights. Fiber optic only, no tritium. I just took it out of the box and haven't had it in natural light yet.

After an in depth 5 minute professional examination () I suspect they won't be quite trijicon ACOG caliber but they look promising.

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  #26  
Old 24 September 2017, 01:34
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2aholster for a shield
Speaking of that...
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  #27  
Old 24 September 2017, 08:08
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Speaking of that...
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  #28  
Old 24 September 2017, 08:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northwesttech View Post
SOW_331,
I think my issue between the two guns is either gun shape or my personal issues of not shooting enough. With the Shield I just hold it how it feels most comfortable and its usually pretty accurate (with my usual anticipating recoil causing low and to the left shots occasionally). With the XDS I hit a bit low if I don't focus on only using the pad of my trigger finger. Not sure why but once I tried the different finger placement, my accuracy finally started to improve with the XDS, but still with the hitting to the left a bit with anticipating recoil.

Regardless, I need to start some more dry firing with both guns. And I don't shoot as much as I'd like living in a metro area vs. growing up in a rural area. Driving an hour and a half each way to go shoot in the woods without the other idiots nearby is my norm, so it doesn't happen as often as I'd like.

Thanks for the input.
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  #29  
Old 24 September 2017, 14:43
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
sights
After messing around some more today, they were impressive in outside light (day) but underwhelming inside. In a moderately dim room, you can sort of pick up the green front, the orange rear not so much. Sights with straight white paint were significantly better for dimmish on down.

I got a screaming deal on the gun so I wasn't picky about the sights, but I think I'll probably throw on some tritiums.
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  #30  
Old 24 September 2017, 16:05
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SOW_0311: I'll admit I have a little bit of a grudge towards their customer service as well. They offered to replace the takedown lever/pins we'd broken. We could send them all in, in their current broken state if brokenness, with an 8-10 week turnaround. Or they'd mail us a new one for each gun, but it'd be the same Maybe It's Metal material as the chincy broken ones. Or...OR!!! We could buy the upgraded tooled steel ones at factory cost, since it's a well known point of failure. Hmmm. If you know it happens enough to have the proper replacement parts on hand...
Just to be clear... are you describing parts failures on 45 Shields? Or the entire Shield/M&P double stack lineup?

When you refer to multiple guns with common failures at your location, could you expand upon your comments? I'm not familiar with your background or current employment.
I don't mind if you gore my ox concerning the Shield. They're just guns. I'm not married to one. I just like to be proactively aware of potential problems or observed points of failure. Just looking for hard failure data points and specific after market solutions (better parts). Not disputing your observations.

So to this point, take down levers are prone to break as well as pins? Which pins? Any other parts developing a reputation for shitting the bed?

You mentioned five guns currently down. How many of these guns are typically present in your organization?

Who carries the tooled steel upgrades you mentioned? Unable to find on S&W's site or places like Brownells, Numrich, etc.

I already went through this scenario decades ago with the Beretta 92/M9. In 1983, the JSSAP test guns I fired were (initially) pretty impressive. A decade or so later, M9s pretty much routinely self destructed under high round counts in my SF line companies. Hard broke M9s were an unfortunate fact of life on all real world deployments. Metal parts failures. On my ODAs, I replaced known weak link parts with better versions. And kept spares stockpiled.

I did the same for 1911A1s before that.
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  #31  
Old 24 September 2017, 16:05
northwesttech northwesttech is offline
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Silverbullet, will do. Thanks.
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  #32  
Old 24 September 2017, 23:11
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Astronomy, sorry for any confusion. I'll try to address your questions as well as possible at the moment and can give more detailed response for anything that you might still have questions about.

We started out with 10 of the Shield 45s, I want to say it was middle of May. Increased interest in people wanting to train with one, asking for feedback, and the Shield sales going on at the time made it seem like a good option on hand. Also two of us went to armorer courses for that model just for the additional support on site. Of those ten, the five had issues to the point that the remaining half of broken parts caused the barrel to be caught on the locking block in between positions, and were a bitch to disassemble. Right now all are working well again with new parts. Each gun has a log book with round counts, ammo details, service and replacement dates, etc

Now while that may sound like a high failure rate for our small batch size, I'm trying to remain objective as possible here. They've all shot as well as can be expected from a short barrel, the 5 that are still running on mostly original OEM parts haven't had any failures outside of a damaged magazine. The QC inspection date on all ten of our guns was all contained within a 72 hour period. Discounting all unverified claims online and looking only at what we have, it's entirely possible that a box of 500 bad parts made it out of the assembly line. Or a box of parts for another caliber, both of these I've seen happen firsthand at another large manufacturer. If that's the case, then it could be isolated to a specific set of guns.

The part I'm most specifically referring to is, by the S&W nomenclature, simply referred to as the "takedown lever". I often see a perception that the lever is the flat portion you apply pressure to, and the length running through the frame and locking block as the "takedown pin". Creating the assumption that the lever is breaking off, while the pin remains intact through the frame as it normally should. This isn't the case, as it's all one piece. Where they're breaking on us is pretty squarely in the middle using 230gr FMJ ammo (Remington UMC and WWB). This same part has broken the same way in a few other S&W guns coincidentally. The M&P 2.0, a few of our Shields in .40, and two Bodyguard .380s that I can recall.

I'll attach a picture of the failure of the most recent bodyguard to better explain what's happening.

As far as the replacement parts are concerned, this was only offered on the phone with a CS rep. However, I can't see anywhere online to order the steel ones for the Shield. I can however find replacement parts from the manufacturer that are MIM on the OEM model, with "hardened" steel upgrades available for end users. It could be that S&W has had enough issues with their suppliers for MIM parts to know the demand for steel is going to be continuous. It could also be that the rep I spoke to on the phone was misinformed and offering to sell me something the hardened sear. Can't really rule either out with any certainty, though the existence of this many crucial parts in an upgraded steel version directly from the manufacturer, tends to be a good indicator that they're aware of the problem occurring with some regularity.
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  #33  
Old 24 September 2017, 23:27
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Let me also add that I have no interest in goring the bull or provoking anyone to feel attacked or defensive of their purchase. In one week, during a development program for a suppressor prototype, I broke 4 of the dual recoil spring assemblies for two G19s, a G17, and a G34 (all gen 4 to be clear).

I was testing an aggressive blast chamber and baffle design with 154gr +P+ ammo. To say I was beyond the recommended chamber pressure with that ammo and the back pressure combined would be a huge understatement. So while the Glock parts broke, they were being pushed outside of their intended use. Same way to a lesser degree as a Shield 45 is supposed to be a concealed carry pistol, and breaking when it's put through some of our higher count courses of fire in a condensed timeframe. I didn't lose faith in Glock when I broke those, their CS actually earned them more of my trust when I notified them of the technical data points at which failure occurred. I similarly haven't lost much faith in the Shield 45 working as a concealed carry gun that you can train to maintain proficiency with.

As my range team likes to say, there's only two kinds of guns on the market. Ones SOW has broken, and ones SOW hasn't broken yet. Some manufacturers use parts with a longer expected part life but all guns need to have internals replaced with a maintenance schedule.

Below is the broken lever for the Bodyguard .380
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_3007.jpg (25.5 KB, 51 views)
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  #34  
Old 25 September 2017, 20:28
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SOW_0331: Thanks for the response.
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