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Old 28 October 2016, 09:38
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Shooting/Fighting with Lights.

While talking with another member the subject of weapon mounted lights came up. My only experience using a weapon mounted light downrange was taping a mini-maglight to my M16 or SAW.

I have folks ask me about using lights and my only advice is not to fall for more Lumens is better. I have found for HD that lower Lums works for me as I do not blind myself on white walls etc. And I always tell folks to flash not to leave their light on as enemies will shoot at a light.

On the subject of IR lights or PEQ lights same issues with walls etc?

I ask that this does not turn into brand X is better etc. My goal here is get some education on tactics/employment of lights for HD.
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Old 28 October 2016, 09:54
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I just put new LED lights on my Jeep, and lowered the front windshield. I am good to go.

Just need to learn now how to dual mount two AUGs to the dash board.
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Old 28 October 2016, 11:07
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GPC View Post
...And I always tell folks to flash not to leave their light on as enemies will shoot at a light....
Learn to and practice "pie-ing" corners with your light, and use a light or laser/light combo with instant on/off capabilities. IIRC, PDN had a good video series that demonstrated good night time home clearing techniques.
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Old 28 October 2016, 13:45
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I do show/teach cutting the pie.

Since I have no night life. I have been trying to figure out what works with my lights.
Big thing is splash back from the light in a smaller space such as a bedroom.
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Old 28 October 2016, 13:52
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I do show/teach cutting the pie.

Since I have no night life. I have been trying to figure out what works with my lights.
Big thing is splash back from the light in a smaller space such as a bedroom.
I know you don't want to turn this thread "into brand X is better etc.", but what light are you running? It could be that you just might need something with less lumens. I had the same blinding "splash" issue when using my Streamlight weapon mounted light. I found the Viridian lights tend to project a narrower cone of light, which also extends the beam, but does not blind me in close quarters.
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Old 28 October 2016, 14:25
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I know you don't want to turn this thread "into brand X is better etc.", but what light are you running? It could be that you just might need something with less lumens. I had the same blinding "splash" issue when using my Streamlight weapon mounted light. I found the Viridian lights tend to project a narrower cone of light, which also extends the beam, but does not blind me in close quarters.

Background I have been teaching younger folks how to shoot. And to make an informed purchase of pistol, shotgun etc. The subject of lights came up. As you and I know houses and apartments come in all shapes and sizes. I do suggest if my student has a Glock to go with the Glock Brand light as I find it just right and you can adjust the cone of light. I do advocate one does not need to spend big bucks on a light.

There is a serious lack of good training in my area. The local club class is a joke ie: No shooting from cover, awkward positions etc.
I try to do that with my students and teach them how to use the house as a weapon also.

Myself on my primary HD weapon a SPAS-12. I go with a mini-mag taped on the mag tube. It works for me.

I live alone so collateral damage isn't a concern.
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Old 28 October 2016, 14:34
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I keep a midget with a flashlight by my bed. If a situation arises, I send him in first with the flashlight!

I still don't have a weapon mounted light. I may give in but for now I use the old fashioned method. I do agree with a lower lumen light in short bursts so you don't blind yourself or become a target.
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Old 29 October 2016, 01:36
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I keep a midget with a flashlight by my bed. If a situation arises, I...........
So what are you doing with said midget during down time?
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Old 29 October 2016, 01:44
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Originally Posted by GPC View Post

On the subject of IR lights or PEQ lights same issues with walls etc?
Of course. While wearing night vision goggles(NVG's)/night observation devices, IR lights and PEQ's (specifically Class 3 lasers) can cause what's called washout. Washout happens when the IR laser beams/lights spash off walls, which essentially causes NVG's/NOD's useless. The IR lights will "bloom" out of control, flooding the room.

Current trend is to use very powerful white visible lights to do close quarters combat (CQC) as it's much easier than using NVG/NOD's and IR lasers.

Without a doubt, they (white visible lights) ought not to be too bright because, as you said, they can temporally blind the user but there's not any official, best-used practices that I've seen. Guys just have to get out there, get all their gear on, and try them out until they see what works for them. Lens caps which diffuse and/or lessen the powerlessness of IR lights can help immensely.

Last edited by Bettendorf; 29 October 2016 at 01:49.
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Old 29 October 2016, 03:22
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It is a different beast to tame and understand.

Few thoughts to remember.

1) when using a weapon mounted light for search and clearing use it in bursts of light far to near. Use the periphery or light splatter of the illumination as it gets nearer.
2) when using cover like corners, short walls, doorways or furniture extend the muzzle past the edge so light backsplash doesn't illuminate you or blind you. Move from cover to cover in darkness if you can.
3) keep your bugger hook off the bang switch until the threat is positively identified and lethal force is warranted.
4) practice using both support hand finger and trigger finger to manipulate the momentary light switch or full on.
5) if you have a strobing light and you have identified a threat that may not require lead injection (just yet) the use of the strobe will disorient and confuse the perpetrator while allowing you to maintain positive control.
6) bad guys may not be alone!
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Old 29 October 2016, 07:59
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Originally Posted by Bettendorf View Post
Of course. While wearing night vision goggles(NVG's)/night observation devices, IR lights and PEQ's (specifically Class 3 lasers) can cause what's called washout. Washout happens when the IR laser beams/lights spash off walls, which essentially causes NVG's/NOD's useless. The IR lights will "bloom" out of control, flooding the room.

Current trend is to use very powerful white visible lights to do close quarters combat (CQC) as it's much easier than using NVG/NOD's and IR lasers.

Without a doubt, they (white visible lights) ought not to be too bright because, as you said, they can temporally blind the user but there's not any official, best-used practices that I've seen. Guys just have to get out there, get all their gear on, and try them out until they see what works for them. Lens caps which diffuse and/or lessen the powerlessness of IR lights can help immensely.
Great info thank you.

Old dog, thank you for the tips.
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Old 30 October 2016, 22:05
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So here is an AAR of my first night shooting session. Fortunately it gets dark around 1900.

I shot about 100 rounds with my G 38 outfitted with a SF XC-1. I also shot with a handheld Streamlight ProTac HL.

First 50 were with the hand held.

I started with the pistol drawn and simply illuminating the target (60% sized IPSC Steel) from about 15m. I would present the pistol, flash the light, get my sight picture, come off the light and then shoot. The goal was to illuminate as little as possible. This handheld is uber bright and from 15m in total blackness, the white steel target washed out a bit. Night sights are a must to shoot this way, I imagine that w/o night sights, you would have to hold your illumination of the target until you fire. I then went on to shooting from behind a barricade. If you don't clear the barricade with that bright ass light, your night vision gets flamed and you see nothing of the target. I tried another technique of flashing the target with the light over my head to ID the target and then slide out from the barricade a bit and flashing and shooting using the Harries method (I actually met the guy this was named after at Gunsite) The goal was to limit the illum time and shoot at your memory of the target location. So, Flash away from you, move out, flash and fire. Getting the first round hit was pretty easy, multiple hits on a memory of the target was difficult. It was MUCH easier when I moved to 10m and used a full sized IPSC target.

Best Practices:
Flash and shoot, do not illum any longer than needed.
Good first round hits at 15m.
Good reloads in the dark
Consider doing a tac reload cause you will not find your mag.
Carry your handheld somewhere you can draw it with your pistol, simultaneously.

Lessons Learned:
Clear the barricade with your hand held it WILL wash out your vision if its bright enough.
Develop muscle memory as to how and where to hold the light either using the Rogers or harries method. This will ensure that your light is pointing at your target.

Next, I used the pistol mounted light only. For this method, I focused on illuminating and then shooting or illuminating to find a target, getting off the X and then re-illuminating and shooting. I also did this standing on the flat and from behind a barricade. The xc-1 definitely requires use of your support hand to get always on illum. I did pretty well with the flash illum and then moving my trigger finger to the trigger and firing. Remember, when you flash a suspected target, you are flagging that target. Keep it in mind, if you are unsure as to a shoot or no shoot.

Best Practices:
Nights sights definitely make flash and shoot much quicker
Reloads are easier with no flashlight in your hand.
Follow up shots are easier when both hands are on the pistol.
Shooting steel let's you know immediately how well your shot was placed.

Lessons Learned.
Don't confuse your light and your trigger.
(Fuck you gavin, I know what your thinking, no, I didn't ND)
Re-holstering with a light on your pistol is tricky as the muzzle is as wide as the hole in the top of your holster.
Proper grip is essential to maintain your sight picture when firing at a memory of your target.

Here is the pistol and rig I used. many thanks to the custom holster by 2aholster.com.



Mi Pistola



Let me know what you guys think.
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Old 31 October 2016, 00:12
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Several years ago I took a low-light instructor course with the Surefire Institute. I had some previous lowlight training, but the Surefire course which also included force on force was good.

The benefits of a good light and the various techniques used was extremely useful as was the employment of weapons mounted lights.
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Old 31 October 2016, 01:13
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What ever happened to the old mil-spec red lens cover that didn't pinpoint the pupil and destroy night vision?

Still do that for aviation.

http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/saf...lashlight.html

http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/saf...lashlight.html


Also, another old flying trick if you only have white light, is to close one eye (dominant in this case) during use of the bright light, to preserve night vision (dilated pupil) in that eye.

Last edited by Tycon; 31 October 2016 at 01:42.
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Old 31 October 2016, 02:10
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What ever happened to the old red lens cover that didn't pinpoint the pupil and destroy night vision? Still do that?

Also, another trick is to close one eye (dominant?) during use of the bright light, to preserve night vision in that eye.
Most manufacturers have colored lenses for tac-lights but the general consensus is white light. I've heard blue is the best. I'd stick with white light because bad guys wear black or dark clothing - so I've heard.

Closing one eye may have a slight advantage for scanning and than going dark again to move if no threat exists but the advantage of rapid identification of a threat and engaging it with both eyes open outweighs any benefit or loss of pupil reflex. The situation (noise or movement of the suspicious suspect) would drive the scenario not whether or not you just go lights on continuously until the threat is identified and neutralized. Once you've gone searching with a flashlight even momentarily the suspect knows he's being hunted.

TFG - While I've gone through many low light shooting drills as you've explained it was not by default that I illuminated the target and then subsequently turned off my light to engage the target. It was more of a failure to keep the light on while maintaining a decent grip. It would not be my first choice to limit my ability to get multiple shots on target while following through and continuously evaluating the threat.

As a note: my agency will not let us use mounted lights so we are still using 1950s FBI holds with good quality Sure-Fire lights with push button tail caps. My personal HD weapons are all mounted StreamLight TLR-2s and 1s they are 1000% better to shoot and illuminate and the laser allows me to engage better from behind or around cover/barricades. I have three long guns two rifles and a shotgun with mounted Sure-Fire Scout lights and after having spent two decades in the military without them I don't know how I ever thought taping a 3-D Cell Mag Light was ever a good idea but, that's what we did back then. Things have changed and lightweight powerful lights are now the standard.

As for handheld flashlights there are several advantages; one being hold off (away from you), and the other is seeing your sight alignment. Lastly and really stupid if you ask me is liability if you are challenged in court as to whether you were pointing your gun at the noise behind your house at two o'clock in the morning or just a flashlight. But, the trade off for a proper two handed grip and magazine changes make a mounted light the better assaulters choice or HD weapon.

Oh and TFG - if you shoot at me in the dark I'm just going to shoot back at the muzzle flash so you might as well blind the sh!t out of me with a 300L light. I might just be squinting. ;-)
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Old 31 October 2016, 07:32
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TFG, how did muzzle flash effect you if at all?
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Old 31 October 2016, 07:59
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Lights

I do most of my training now at night. Aligns itself best w/what I really enjoy; which, is hunting feral hogs

Things that I've changed:

o The majority of my carry/hunting pistolas have trijjicon RMRs.

o The majority of my shoulder fired firearms have aim point micros.

o I use lights attached to the pistol/carbine/shotgun.

o I use green light.

My hog hunting is all short range/fast shooting. Mostly, w/in 30meters & it's wooded, w/thick vegetation surrounding the engagement area. So, the engagements are very quick; generally, not more than 2-3 seconds.

Much to master

Good hunting
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File Type: jpg ps90 hogs.jpg (11.2 KB, 283 views)
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Old 31 October 2016, 09:17
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TFG, how did muzzle flash effect you if at all?
So I was shooting reloads made with PowerPistol, which, if you reload makes your pistol a dragon. It was significant.

ODNT,

I agree, closing one eye, especially the good eye, puts you in a position of shooting cross eye dominant.. Sorry tycon, but I keep both eyes open.

My general precept or doctrine for this drill was to never stay in the place that you have just marked, either through muzzle flash or illum.
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Old 31 October 2016, 09:33
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As for handheld flashlights there are several advantages; one being hold off (away from you), and the other is seeing your sight alignment. Lastly and really stupid if you ask me is liability if you are challenged in court as to whether you were pointing your gun at the noise behind your house at two o'clock in the morning or just a flashlight. But, the trade off for a proper two handed grip and magazine changes make a mounted light the better assaulters choice or HD weapon.

Oh and TFG - if you shoot at me in the dark I'm just going to shoot back at the muzzle flash so you might as well blind the sh!t out of me with a 300L light. I might just be squinting. ;-)
My doctrine was the same for both tactics, illuminate, locate, assess and fire. leaving the light on while firing exponentially makes it more difficult to either shoot, or turn off the light. The handheld light makes everything harder, EXCEPT illuminating away from your body. It also allows you to illuminate and assess without flagging what might be a no shoot.
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Old 31 October 2016, 09:39
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I agree, closing one eye, especially the good eye, puts you in a position of shooting cross eye dominant.. Sorry tycon, but I keep both eyes open.
As one eye does, so does the other. Shine a light in one eye, cover the other, the covered eye also reacts. However, if running around with an improvised eye patch floats anyone's boat, have at...
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