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  #21  
Old 31 October 2016, 12:03
Shark0311 Shark0311 is offline
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As one eye does, so does the other. Shine a light in one eye, cover the other, the covered eye also reacts. However, if running around with an improvised eye patch floats anyone's boat, have at...
In terms of pupil dilation sure but in regards to rods and cones each eye operates independently. There is some value to protecting one eyes night vision in the field but in this instance hell no. When you're actively hunting with a light, stealth has gone out the window.

Last edited by Shark0311; 31 October 2016 at 12:17.
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  #22  
Old 31 October 2016, 13:09
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As one eye does, so does the other. Shine a light in one eye, cover the other, the covered eye also reacts. However, if running around with an improvised eye patch floats anyone's boat, have at...
Well you have that pirate costume for you and Hot mess but doesn't that include a thong and a strap o...

Oh never mind.
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  #23  
Old 31 October 2016, 13:19
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Dark adaptation and Rhodopsin Pigmentation of the retina (Rods and Cones)

Here thought I'd stick this here, it's relevant to the discussion.

http://coopervision.com/blog/how-eyes-see-night

If you can maintain your 'night vision' while diminishing the threats ability to see, you are maintaining the upper hand. But, once the shooting starts all bets are on winning the fight not surviving the darkness to come.
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  #24  
Old 31 October 2016, 15:47
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My handheld, when held too long in the flash mode starts to strobe. Not sure what to think about that just yet.

It doesn't bother me or impact my shooting, I wonder what effect it has on the threat.
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Old 4 November 2016, 15:31
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
I agree, closing one eye, especially the good eye, puts you in a position of shooting cross eye dominant.. Sorry tycon, but I keep both eyes open.
Yup, that makes sense...when you're in a tactical hurry, playing switch the eye/sight allignment is probably much too slow. I may be able to get away with that from the cover location in the bedroom, but active clearing, etc...probably a no-go.

I've got one of the super bright lights to blind the possible intruder, but was thinking about going with a much dimmer (more stealthy?) red light to preserve night vision. But again, shooting from cover, and they have to go through the dog and the locked solid core bedroom door, alarm system, etc.

Also placed a few battery operated motion-controlled-lights in the hallway and just inside inner-bedroom such as to sillouette and intruder from behind and flash in the face coming through the door, if they got that far. (also good for stumbling in the other direction to the pisser a few times per night!).

About the same time the dog would start growling/barking.
He sleeps in the bedroom with us.

Final bedroom defense (if he/they get through all the other layers) is a 12ga/18.55 pump Mossy 500 w/00.

Last edited by Tycon; 4 November 2016 at 16:00.
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  #26  
Old 4 November 2016, 16:43
Shark0311 Shark0311 is offline
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I've got one of the super bright lights to blind the possible intruder, but was thinking about going with a much dimmer (more stealthy?) red light to preserve night vision.
The only "stealthy" light is one that is used under a poncho liner. You don't worry about night vision in CQB.
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  #27  
Old 5 November 2016, 12:40
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With regard to preserving night vision, do a Google search for "Night Vision - The Red Myth", it gives a pretty good explanation of the subject.

With regard to light intensity in interior settings, it is not so much a function of the intensity of the light, but rather the beam quality and shape. There are plenty of guys running around with 500 to 1000 lumen lights on their handguns and carbines/shotguns that are not blinding themselves, even when illuminating a white wall directly opposite, at room distances.

A 500 to 1000 lumen Surefire weaponlight is a completely different beast from a cheap Chinese made, no name brand light.

The other thing that needs to be taken into account when attaching a light to a firearm, are the effects of recoil. Not only on the bulb, if it is an incandescent light, but on the batteries recoiling within the light. The same thing happened with the old Eotech sights, that got killed by their own batteries.

More light, providing you are using a quality light, is, as they say "mo better". Move from inside a small structure to a field behind it, and now your light needs to be able to illuminate the hedgerow 50 meters away, or move from the front office of a warehouse, into the warehouse itself, or from a classroom into the hallway of a typical large school or college. If you can't ID your target, you can't engage it, both literally, and legally, if that is a consideration.

A couple of other things to consider, is that if you are in an environment that is light enough for you to move through without needing the light to navigate obstacles, you are probably going to be visible to an observer anyway. If the opposition also has NV/thermal, then using a bright light will probably be more advantageous than staying dark, as they can probably see you anyway, and the white light could temporarily (or even permanently, if it is Gen1/2) incapacitate their NV capacity, thereby giving you the advantage.

Regards.

Mark
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  #28  
Old 5 November 2016, 16:36
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A lot of good tips listed, so I won't repeat them. I will add that I am a big advocate of 2 lights, weapon mounted and a handheld. When in a 'search mode,' a hand held can be used to help locate hiding threats. Use of it in a 'bounce light' fashion will cast shadows from behind doors, furniture, etc. I have found many that way, and before being right on top of them, avoiding any startle responses on their end or ambushes.

You can do it with a mounted light also, but should something occur elsewhere you will not be as ready, i.e. you are bouncing light off ceiling to check behind furniture (so your muzzle is now up) and a threat pops out from side room. You can hold light out from you so your arm does not obstruct your vision, and weapon could be maintained at a low ready and more stable platform. In a team environment, one person can be the 'illuminator' while the second provides the immediate cover.

I hope I have explained it well enough.

Last edited by Tonydec; 5 November 2016 at 16:41.
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  #29  
Old 5 November 2016, 19:16
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Originally Posted by Shark0311 View Post
The only "stealthy" light is one that is used under a poncho liner. You don't worry about night vision in CQB.
Plus with the other Motion activated lights, Streetlight spill, etc. I might as well go bright (handheld) around the house.

Great thread!
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  #30  
Old 5 November 2016, 20:17
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Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
My handheld, when held too long in the flash mode starts to strobe. Not sure what to think about that just yet.

It doesn't bother me or impact my shooting, I wonder what effect it has on the threat.
We've got lights that will strobe with a double-tap on the button. The strobe light is surprisingly disorienting when it's in your face. My friend refers to as the "make you puke light".
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  #31  
Old 5 November 2016, 20:24
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Plus with the other Motion activated lights, Streetlight spill, etc. I might as well go bright (handheld) around the house.
Which brings up a valuable point. Who really wants to get drug through the legal system for defending your home and family from two bit worthless criminals? Not too mention the clean up and a chance to damage what belongs to you or cause further harm, injury or death.

While my house is well illuminated (as a safety/security standpoint) from hallway plug-in-lights and a street light; moving around is something that can be done in almost total darkness. The reason I have lights attached to the guns in my house for home self-defense is to positively identify the possible threat. I may have my reasons for staying dark or quickly scanning a room and then moving again in darkness and surprising the burglar so that he is arrested and charged but, for my wife who is far less trained, I want her to go lights on immediately hoping the burglar(s) flees before contact.

There are two common types of burglaries these days. The old fashioned come through an open/unlocked/broken door/window type that rummage through your house for valuables, and home invasion - multiple subjects, most likely armed, forced entry and brutally effective in subduing their victims rapidly. Then forcing them to submit to whatever and for however long. (Also, the police have been using this same technique - oftentimes the wrong address. I really don't want to get into a gun fight against the local door kicking team no matter how wrong they are at the moment.)

So the question is...do you maintain stealth, surprise and the ability to effectively engage the threat all in one, or let those on the receiving end know they have lost the element of surprise and violence of action and may soon find out that the light emitting diode pointed at them fires high velocity projectiles too.

Different levels of training = different levels of use.
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  #32  
Old 5 November 2016, 21:48
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Originally Posted by Old Dog New Trick View Post
Which brings up a valuable point. Who really wants to get drug through the legal system for defending your home and family from two bit worthless criminals? Not too mention the clean up and a chance to damage what belongs to you or cause further harm, injury or death.

While my house is well illuminated (as a safety/security standpoint) from hallway plug-in-lights and a street light; moving around is something that can be done in almost total darkness. The reason I have lights attached to the guns in my house for home self-defense is to positively identify the possible threat. I may have my reasons for staying dark or quickly scanning a room and then moving again in darkness and surprising the burglar so that he is arrested and charged but, for my wife who is far less trained, I want her to go lights on immediately hoping the burglar(s) flees before contact.

There are two common types of burglaries these days. The old fashioned come through an open/unlocked/broken door/window type that rummage through your house for valuables, and home invasion - multiple subjects, most likely armed, forced entry and brutally effective in subduing their victims rapidly. Then forcing them to submit to whatever and for however long. (Also, the police have been using this same technique - oftentimes the wrong address. I really don't want to get into a gun fight against the local door kicking team no matter how wrong they are at the moment.)

So the question is...do you maintain stealth, surprise and the ability to effectively engage the threat all in one, or let those on the receiving end know they have lost the element of surprise and violence of action and may soon find out that the light emitting diode pointed at them fires high velocity projectiles too.

Different levels of training = different levels of use.
I would say, in a home defense setting, stealth and surprise up to the point that you find the bad guy. Then white light (for positive ID) / outgoing rounds.
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  #33  
Old 5 November 2016, 22:19
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So I have a Kimber TLE II RL with a SF 300 Ultra. Tomorrow night I am going to try a method I saw Ron Avery use where you illum the target, shoot and then off the light with you support hand thumb.

More to come......
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  #34  
Old 6 November 2016, 03:51
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Lots of good info and food for thought in this thread.

At home I planned on staying planted in front of the wife behind bedroom cover, and letting LE clear while I stayed on with dispatch. Reminds me I should put a garage door opener in the bedroom. But clearing with a flashlight on seems to give a huge advantage to a possible ambush of you while you are mobile. Even if holding it away from your own center of mass while clearing.
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  #35  
Old 6 November 2016, 09:26
Shark0311 Shark0311 is offline
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But clearing with a flashlight on seems to give a huge advantage to a possible ambush of you while you are mobile. Even if holding it away from your own center of mass while clearing.
They all have momentary on/off switches and it pays to learn how to use them. If you are concerned about getting ambushed in your home then I suggest you get a dog. There is no better deterrent than a barking dog.
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  #36  
Old 6 November 2016, 09:50
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They all have momentary on/off switches and it pays to learn how to use them. If you are concerned about getting ambushed in your home then I suggest you get a dog. There is no better deterrent than a barking dog.
This is a good point. Don't just rely on your light to feed your senses. My wife has a miniature dachshund that sleeps in a kennel downstairs that has a very keen sense of awareness. If someone was in the house, he would lose his mind. He also knows when someone comes up the driveway.

One night he was barking like crazy and I hear something bumping downstairs. After activating the plan upstairs I went to the top of the stairs, and just like your security stop 500 meters after leaving the patrol base, I stopped looked and listed before going downstairs. It turned out to be the screen door was flapping in the wind. HH6 didn't lock it after painting it.
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Old 6 November 2016, 09:51
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Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
Lots of good info and food for thought in this thread.

At home I planned on staying planted in front of the wife behind bedroom cover, and letting LE clear while I stayed on with dispatch. Reminds me I should put a garage door opener in the bedroom. But clearing with a flashlight on seems to give a huge advantage to a possible ambush of you while you are mobile. Even if holding it away from your own center of mass while clearing.
Good point. Proper training in room clearing as well as shooting with the light. Your tactic is sound and one I teach to my clients.
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  #38  
Old 6 November 2016, 11:38
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They all have momentary on/off switches and it pays to learn how to use them. If you are concerned about getting ambushed in your home then I suggest you get a dog. There is no better deterrent than a barking dog.
Exactly. And beware of dog sticky-tag on the doors.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tycon View Post
But again, I'm shooting from cover, and they have to go through the dog and the locked solid core bedroom door, alarm system, etc.

Also placed a few battery operated motion-controlled-lights in the hallway and just inside inner-bedroom such as to silhouette and intruder from behind and flash in the face coming through the door, if they got that far. About the same time the dog would start growling/barking. He sleeps in the bedroom with us.
I literally put a solid core door on the bedroom with a steel x-bar. The dog and the Mossy500 sleep in there with us. The dog even gets a rawhide at bedtime to make sure he's "territorial". LOL. Cellphone alarmclock to call 911. Motion light (battery op) pointed at the door from odd angle in front of us, to blind intruder.

Had a situation at my old house (when I was young!) where the dog woke me to two guys prying open our downstairs window. I grabbed my pistol and ran out on the bedroom balcony (2nd floor, above them, with the dog), but by that time they were jumping into a car waiting in the street. I didn't fire a round at the car, but sure wanted to!

I recognized one fucker as the older brother of a neighborhood chick I knew intimately (to put it diplomatically), and I guess he figured I owed some kind of a "tax" on that exchange. They never did get inside but had the window pried 1/2 open. Never did track 'em down. Catch22.

...

Last edited by Tycon; 6 November 2016 at 11:47.
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  #39  
Old 6 November 2016, 12:14
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So I have a Kimber TLE II RL with a SF 300 Ultra. Tomorrow night I am going to try a method I saw Ron Avery use where you illum the target, shoot and then off the light with you support hand thumb.

More to come......
Do you have a DG switch for your 300U?

Regards.

Mark
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  #40  
Old 6 November 2016, 14:05
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I use support thumb to hit temp on with glock and TLR light. It works for me well.
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