Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > General Topics > The Lounge

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 26 December 2009, 17:33
Cayenne6 Cayenne6 is offline
Semi-Old Fart
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: St Petersburg, Fl.
Posts: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by FroggyRuminations View Post
My immediate assumption was that the taliban had him wear those in an attempt to avoid the possibility of him sending duress messages through Morse coded eye blinks. There is a well known example of a POW in VN having done this. That or to hide evidence of him being under the influence of narcotics or to conceal an injury.
Those are possible but the taliban has never showed an interest in doing it in the past. Guess there is a first time for everything. I just don't see it though.

Whatever the case we can't leave him.
  #22  
Old 26 December 2009, 17:57
stanpunjabTrini stanpunjabTrini is offline
On the Extract Bird
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: IL
Posts: 537
The Taliban are learning to use propaganda as part of a toolbox essential!
A few years ago they would have beheaded their captive(s) so the learning curve is an excellent one to see who blinks i.e. will the pfc be executive, join the ranks of Talib, or US will not do anything and see what develops.
  #23  
Old 26 December 2009, 18:26
Sharky's Avatar
Sharky Sharky is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: SOCNET
Posts: 18,200
I do still want him rescued, even if only to stand court martial. And I understand about his family. But what about the family of the SOF guy who gets killed trying to rescue this idiot?
__________________
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate
I am the captain of my soul.
-Invictus
  #24  
Old 26 December 2009, 18:37
Spinner's Avatar
Spinner Spinner is offline
Pele's Bucket of Fire?...never heard of it
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,983
I agree, his captivity differs from a more traditional POW in the sense that he wasn't captured while carrying out a mission. He walked away from his base, willingly, right into the arms of his captors. He has a lot to answer for.

He's still wearing the uniform, though, and I think we go down the slippery slope when we try to decide the relative merit of who does and who doesn't qualify for a rescue attempt, in this case at least.

It would be different if he had gone off by himself, like the Army Sgt. who crossed the border into North Korea back in the 60s and wound up spending the next 4 decades in their hands. I like to think that asshole realized his mistake almost immediately, and spent those ensuing decades regretting it every minute.
__________________
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who!"

Last edited by Spinner; 26 December 2009 at 18:42.
  #25  
Old 26 December 2009, 18:41
Walken1's Avatar
Walken1 Walken1 is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Antonio Texas
Posts: 1,619
Stokholm Syndrome? 5mos is a long time to get worked...maybe the lack of evidence for duress is because this soldier's sole means of survival are in his captor's hands.
People in the US go apeshit over waterboarding. I can't even imagine what those missing-link, stoneage whack jobs are doing.
As far as his disappearance resulting from jackassery; I can't comment on that other than to say he's an American Soldier. And I can't see any situation, short of treason, where allowing him to be at the talibans disposal is better than the alternative.
  #26  
Old 26 December 2009, 18:44
Spinner's Avatar
Spinner Spinner is offline
Pele's Bucket of Fire?...never heard of it
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 11,983
And it was pointed out by one of the officers who was quoted in a news report yesterday, the video isn't necessarily proof of life. They haven't been able to date it yet, and it appears to have been heavily edited, showing him at different times during his captivity.
__________________
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let's not bicker and argue over who killed who!"
  #27  
Old 26 December 2009, 19:44
Purple36's Avatar
Purple36 Purple36 is offline
Swimming Upstream
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: East Coast
Posts: 8,966
This was an Aljizeera article from July 09. Note what they have declared about the treatment of prisoners (in bold):


The Taliban in Afghanistan has issued a book laying down a code of conduct for its fighters. Al Jazeera has obtained a copy of the book, which further indicates that Mullah Omar, the movement's leader, wants to centralize its operations.

The book, with 13 chapters and 67 articles, lays out what one of the most secretive organizations in the world today, can and cannot do.
It talks of limiting suicide attacks, avoiding civilian casualties and winning the battle for the hearts and minds of the local civilian population.
Al Jazeera's James Bays, reporting from the capital, Kabul, said every fighter is being issued the pocket book entitled "The Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan Rules for Mujahideen".

The book sheds considerable light on the structure, organization and aims of the group, he said. Mullah Omar is quoted as saying that creating a new mujahideen group or battalion is forbidden.
"If unofficial groups or irregular battalions refuse to join the formal structure, they should be disbanded," Omar says.
Individual Taliban commanders have so far had a fair degree of autonomy, often deciding what operations to conduct and how to run the territory that they control. Our correspondent said the regulations seem to be an attempt by Mullah Omar to bring all of the Taliban under his control.
"We have in the past had a lot of different groups in Afghanistan operating under the umbrella of the Taliban," Bays said.
"But it says in these regulations that if you find an irregular battalion that is not obeying orders then what you have to do is find that battalion and then disarm them."

Suicide bombing rules
Michael Griffin, an Afghanistan expert and author of the book Reaping the Whirlwind: Al Qaeda and the Holy War, told Al Jazeera: "The Taliban ... is flirting very closely with criminality on a very, very, large scale.
"If you think of the New York Times reporter who was kidnapped in November last year and released for $8m, this was a criminal act and has nothing to do with the Taliban as a political and military force.
"I think [Mullah Omar is] trying to bring all the disparate elements in the Taliban together under one umbrella to somehow isolate and and separate the elements which are simply criminal.
"But this is a difficult cause because there are a lot of people in the Taliban because it pays them."
While the Taliban have repeatedly used suicide bombings across Afghanistan, the book now says that they should be used only on high and important targets."
'Strong guarantees'
"A brave son of Islam should not be used for lower and useless targets. The utmost effort should be made to avoid civilian casualties," the book says.
There are now clear guidelines on how the Taliban will treat its prisoners as well.
"Whenever any official, soldier, contractor or worker of the slave government is captured, these prisoners cannot be attacked or harmed," it says.
"The decision on whether to seek a prisoner exchange or to release the prisoner with strong guarantees will be made by the provincial leader.
"Releasing prisoners in exchange for money is strictly prohibited."
The book further states that if a "military infidel" is captured, the decision on whether to kill, release or exchange the hostage is only to be made by the Imam, a reference to Mullah Omar, or deputy Imam.
'Winning hearts'
The book makes it clear that it is the duty of every fighter to win over the local population. "The mujahideen have to behave well and show proper treatment to the nation, in order to bring the hearts of civilian Muslims closer to them. "The mujahideen must avoid discrimination based on tribal roots, language or geographic background."
Our correspondent said the reference to winning over the hearts of the Afghan people is very similar to language used by Nato-led military forces in the country.

"Recently the Nato commander here issued a new tactical directive saying that civilians should not be bombed - almost the same words in these regulations to Taliban fighters," Bays said.
"Both sides [are] trying to win over the civilian population in their area."
The release of the rule book comes less than a month before Afghans head to the polls for a presidential election, which the Taliban has deemed an illegitimate system imposed by foreigners.
The timing may be just a coincidence, however, as rival presidential candidates detail their manifestos and the Taliban makes an effort to win over the Afghan public.
__________________
- Faith involves believing in the veracity of the unprovable and unobservable, whether that consists of religion or theoretical physics, which at the very subatomic level start looking rather similar. -ET1/SS Nuke
  #28  
Old 27 December 2009, 00:18
IrishSoldier IrishSoldier is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Walking in L.A.
Posts: 1,433
Every long war has incidents like this,

Iraq http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Qusai_al-Taayie

Vietnam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Garwood

Korea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Robert_Jenkins

Even World War Two http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_James_Monti

We should probably be more worried about our terps and the guys working for us. Untold numbers of them have been kidnapped and killed since the wars began.
__________________
"Don't make me assume my ultimate form, I will Fucking wreck you!"
  #29  
Old 27 December 2009, 00:23
IrishSoldier IrishSoldier is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Walking in L.A.
Posts: 1,433
Every long war has incidents like this,

Iraq http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Qusai_al-Taayie

Vietnam http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobby_Garwood

Korea http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Robert_Jenkins

Even World War Two http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_James_Monti

We should probably be more worried about our terps and the guys working for us. Untold numbers of them have been kidnapped and killed since the wars began.
__________________
"Don't make me assume my ultimate form, I will Fucking wreck you!"
  #30  
Old 27 December 2009, 16:35
Chaplain's Avatar
Chaplain Chaplain is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 425
Every winter where I live, the Coast Guard and local LEO's risk their lives to rescue stupid ice-fishermen adrift on the Great Lakes. If we limited our rescues to only smart, deserving people who played no part in getting into their predicament, there wouldn't be much action on the Great Lakes in winter. Some have been pulled out multiple times. I'm sure it is tempting to want to let the more obviously stupid ones deal with their mistakes without any intervention. I guess the rescuers live with the hope, however slim it may appear to be at times, that maybe THIS time will make the person (and all those watching) realize how stupid and dangerous their actions were, and resolve not to repeat them. I wonder how this soldier's appreciation for America would change if he ever gets the chance to go home?
__________________
"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports..." -George Washington

"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined, but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
- George Washington
  #31  
Old 27 December 2009, 18:22
eoddude eoddude is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Iowa
Posts: 338
$8,000,000 for a reporter.


I wouldn't give 2 cents.
  #32  
Old 27 December 2009, 20:06
RB's Avatar
RB RB is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: FAY
Posts: 602
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walken1 View Post
Stokholm Syndrome? 5mos is a long time to get worked...maybe the lack of evidence for duress is because this soldier's sole means of survival are in his captor's hands.
People in the US go apeshit over waterboarding. I can't even imagine what those missing-link, stoneage whack jobs are doing.
As far as his disappearance resulting from jackassery; I can't comment on that other than to say he's an American Soldier. And I can't see any situation, short of treason, where allowing him to be at the talibans disposal is better than the alternative.
This kid had Stockholm before he left the base of his own volition.

Taliban disposal? He WANTED TO BE A TALIBAN, voiced concerns BEFORE HE LEFT THE BASE about the US involvement in Astan.

They've done us a favor.......him returning to us and saying I'm sorry and then being released into the population is like handing Maj Hasan a handgun and telling him to go have fun.

Godspeed to those charged with searching for this fuck.

Do some homework. This kids 'walk' is well documented.

One handed applause to you for giving him well wishes, one finger salute to him.
__________________
I was born for the storm, and a calm does not suit me.
- Andrew Jackson -

~D-6606~
  #33  
Old 27 December 2009, 21:12
The Fat Guy's Avatar
The Fat Guy The Fat Guy is offline
The Sagacious One
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pushing string down the hall
Posts: 13,112
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
I am soooooooooo glad this word was not in vogue when I was in. I am also glad this word cannot be applied to me in the slightest.

I believe the evidence is as Sharky has commented. If there is really no doubt as to that having been the case, then rather than send good men into harm's way on a "rescue" mission, I would hope sound minds would simply route a couple of air strikes instead. Afterwards, have some forensics people ID the people and gather intel from the site....
SB,

Agreed that this guy is not deserving, but when has the validity of the captive's capture been an issue?

How many OGA's have been NEO'd out of Africa long after they were told to pull pitch?

And as far as being a sheepdog; in vogue? I thought I was the only knucklehead that used that analogy. And just because you own the flock now doesnt mean you lost your sheepdog's heart.
__________________
No one will take better care of us, than us: Suicide Hotline: 1-800-273-8255
  #34  
Old 27 December 2009, 22:10
Purple36's Avatar
Purple36 Purple36 is offline
Swimming Upstream
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: East Coast
Posts: 8,966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor_Baghdad View Post
This kid had Stockholm before he left the base of his own volition.

Taliban disposal? He WANTED TO BE A TALIBAN, voiced concerns BEFORE HE LEFT THE BASE about the US involvement in Astan.

TREASON is the exact reason he is where he is.

They've done us a favor.......him returning to us and saying I'm sorry and then being released into the population is like handing Maj Hasan a handgun and telling him to go have fun.

Godspeed to those charged with searching for this fuck.

Do some homework. This kids 'walk' is well documented.

One handed applause to you for giving him well wishes, one finger salute to him.
What if you are wrong?
__________________
- Faith involves believing in the veracity of the unprovable and unobservable, whether that consists of religion or theoretical physics, which at the very subatomic level start looking rather similar. -ET1/SS Nuke
  #35  
Old 27 December 2009, 22:15
SOTB's Avatar
SOTB SOTB is offline
Minus one, but more symmetrical....
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Clorox'ing the gene pool....
Posts: 33,024
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fat Guy
How many OGA's have been NEO'd out of Africa long after they were told to pull pitch?
Dude! You're dating us by using the term "NEO." Or do they still use that term? Wait, I mean -- dude, you are an old guy -- what does NEO mean?
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fat Guy
And just because you own the flock now doesnt mean you lost your sheepdog's heart.
I can't do it -- that term just strikes me as too dramatic. Besides -- and seriously -- I don't like people. I help people who get hurt, or if I see them in trouble -- but admittedly, that usually applies to people I don't know. People I know seem to be smart enough to not get in trouble. Or I'm the one really in trouble, and the people I know are sitting there next to me with stupid grins on their faces, poking me in the ribs and telling me what great fun this is. I try to tell myself I shouldn't hang out with these types, but invariably there I am -- again -- and the same dudes are there with these silly grins and loving the situation. I think I need smarter friends. Or at least that is my spin on it.

My problem with "rescuing" this dude is that I honestly don't believe that he is "captured." Certainly, if people in the know think he is, then they know best how to resolve the situation. But based on what little I have learned/been told, it seems to me that losing men on an operation to save this clown would be a pretty shitty situation. Why not instead just test out our newest JDAM?
__________________
Losing faith in humanity, one assclown at a time....
  #36  
Old 28 December 2009, 00:00
Purple36's Avatar
Purple36 Purple36 is offline
Swimming Upstream
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: East Coast
Posts: 8,966
Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor_Baghdad View Post
You really don't get it.

The folks on this board had backside info the night this kid walked.

We knew the story before mainstream media did.

We're not wrong.

http://trueslant.com/pjtobia/2009/07...dahl-deserted/



Money.
If he, in fact deserted, I'm agreed not to waste a life on going after him.

I'll trust people in the know, but not Ralph Peters and certainly not Michelle Malkin
__________________
- Faith involves believing in the veracity of the unprovable and unobservable, whether that consists of religion or theoretical physics, which at the very subatomic level start looking rather similar. -ET1/SS Nuke
  #37  
Old 28 December 2009, 06:28
The Fat Guy's Avatar
The Fat Guy The Fat Guy is offline
The Sagacious One
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pushing string down the hall
Posts: 13,112
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOTB View Post
But based on what little I have learned/been told, it seems to me that losing men on an operation to save this clown would be a pretty shitty situation. Why not instead just test out our newest JDAM?
Yes Brother, Like fine wine we are running the risk of becoming vinegar.

I am not saying that this cat should be on the top ten list or that even a ground op should be considered. My only point is that we do not get to choose (Well, you and I do now, but for decades we did not).

I agree with Sharky that if only to stand trial, let's bring this guy home, but to what expense? I think he deserves what he paid, which is not that much.

Oh and you know damn well its not the love of sheep that calls us, its the hatred of the wolf.

OK, no more circa 1980's memories of how "Aged" we are.
__________________
No one will take better care of us, than us: Suicide Hotline: 1-800-273-8255
  #38  
Old 28 December 2009, 09:24
Max Power Max Power is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: PNW
Posts: 3,539
Didn't know about his actions until now. Now that I do, looks like a recent episode of Lie to Me (awesome show, btw) took this as its inspiration... http:// www hulu com/watch/109911/lie-to-me-secret-santa#s-p1-so-i0
__________________
" what is great in man is that he is a bridge and not an end."
  #39  
Old 1 July 2010, 01:28
Ranger1 Ranger1 is offline
ORP
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: ............
Posts: 8,460
One year anniversary is coming up on this guy getting 'kidnapped' (if you can call it that).

What's the odds some of you guys that are deployed come across him in a full beard and shooting in your direction?
  #40  
Old 23 August 2010, 09:39
Hawk14's Avatar
Hawk14 Hawk14 is offline
Confirmed User
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 550
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirk View Post
One year anniversary is coming up on this guy getting 'kidnapped' (if you can call it that).

What's the odds some of you guys that are deployed come across him in a full beard and shooting in your direction?
So apparently he's "working for the other side now" according to the London Times...

London Sunday Times
August 22, 2010

Captured US Soldier Has Joined Our Cause, Say Taliban

By Miles Amoore, Kabul

The only known American soldier in Taliban captivity is training fighters in bomb-making and ambush, according to one of his captors and the Afghan intelligence agents working to free him.

Private Bowe Bergdahl disappeared from an American military base in southeastern Afghanistan in June 2009. Last week The Sunday Times interviewed one of his captors, shedding light on a case that has baffled US military officials.

A Taliban deputy district commander in Paktika province said the 24-year-old American had converted to Islam in the months after his capture. He said Bergdahl, from Idaho's Sun Valley, had trained Taliban fighters in bomb-making and ambushing convoys.

"When I saw him for the second time, he had totally changed. He had a beard and he treated all of us very respectfully. He seemed very relaxed in our company. He was no longer scared," said the commander, who called himself Haji Nadeem.

Bergdahl, who was given the Muslim name Abdullah after converting, allegedly taught Nadeem how to dismantle a Nokia mobile telephone and turn it into a remote control for roadside bombs. Nadeem also received basic ambush training during a two-hour session in the Sar Hawza district.

"Most of the skills he taught us we already knew. Some of my comrades think he's pretending to be a Muslim to save himself so they wouldn't behead him," said Nadeem.

Afghan intelligence also believes Bergdahl is "co-operating with the Taliban" at one of its bases in the tribal area of Pakistan. A senior official in Ghazni province, where Bergdahl was moved before being transferred to Pakistan, said intelligence suggested that the American had acted as an "adviser" to the rebels.

The Taliban have killed at least two informers caught passing information about Bergdahl's whereabouts to the NDS, Afghanistan's intelligence agency, according to the official.

American forces, acting on a tip-off received by the NDS six days after Bergdahl disappeared, came close to rescuing him when they raided a tent belonging to Kuchi nomads on the Pakistan border.

The soldiers chased a group of fighters in the vicinity, killing at least one of them. They found rocket propelled grenades and assault rifles in one of the tents, but no Bergdahl.

Three videos showing the American soldier in captivity have been released by the Taliban, including one on Christmas Day in which Bergdahl criticised American operations in Afghanistan.

Bergdahl left his observation post in Paktika's Yahya Khel district on June 30, 2009 accompanied by an Afghan soldier. He was spotted entering a village close to the local bazaar at Sharan.

A group of eight Taliban gunmen in a field nearby were alerted to spring an ambush. As the fighters encircled the two men, the Afghan soldier raised his weapon to fire but was shot and killed instantly.

Bergdahl raised his hands in surrender. One of his attackers whipped him across the face with the butt of his rifle, forcing him to the ground.

The Taliban dragged the soldier, who was attached to the 501st Parachute Infantry Regiment, into a compound. They kicked him in the chest, took his pistol and ordered him to take off his bulletproof vest and uniform.

"The fighters thought he might have something on him that could give away his location to other American soldiers," said Nadeem.

He was given traditional Afghan clothes. The militants then radioed the Taliban in Mota Khan district, where their commander was based.

"My commander told them not to kill the American. He told them to feed him, hide him and he said take everything that he has on his body and throw it away. Don't even leave him with a small nail because it could be used to show your location," Nadeem said.

When Bergdahl missed roll call the following morning, Predator drones and dog teams launched a search. Then intercepted radio chatter confirmed that he was in enemy hands.

"He is alive, there is nowhere he can go," one Talib radioed, according to American intelligence documents released by WikiLeaks, the whistleblower site. "I think he is a big shot. [That's] why they are looking for him," said another.

The intelligence came too late. Hooded and with his hands tied, Bergdahl was moved overnight on the back of a motorcycle to a village about 20 minutes away.

The following day Taliban commanders visited Bergdahl, hidden in the home of a farmer. The American was petrified.

"He was thinking about how we were going to behead him. He could barely speak his own language," said Nadeem. "We couldn't communicate with him so we had to wait another day while an interpreter came from Pakistan." About 20 senior figures came with him.

Bergdahl's captors asked him his name, rank and unit. They wanted to know why he had wandered off the base.

"He refused to say what he was doing. He told us he didn't think there would be Taliban so close to his base and to the bazaar," said Nadeem.

A Taliban spokesman claimed they had captured a "drunken American". The US military said he had simply "walked off the base".

Bergdahl said in a video released by the Taliban that he was snatched while lagging behind during a patrol. Some of the militants argued in favour of beheading him. Others wanted to swap the American for Taliban prisoners.

"He told us he had not come here to fight us and that we needed to work together to find a solution," said Nadeem.

Taliban officials who had crossed from Pakistan took Bergdahl away, paying $2,000 to each of the eight fighters who had captured him.

Nadeem said he saw Bergdahl once more, six months later: "We were sent to get some training. But we couldn't stay long in the mountains because his handlers wanted to move him every night to avoid him being spotted."

http://ebird.osd.mil/ebfiles/e20100823771400.html For those with E-bird access..
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:04.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
SOCNET