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  #21  
Old 17 October 2016, 22:17
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Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
One problem, in many states (such as Indiana) you have to be under 35 years old.......
Call me crazy, but a 41 year old military veteran may have some real advantages on the street over that of a 22 year old straight out of college.
Anytime...I already told you bring yo' behind down here. We have no age limit, and would love to have you.


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Originally Posted by Agoge View Post
Many of ours in that category have been some of our very best producers.
This is spot on. I have seen the same here.. I prefer them older...then they can actually lead and teach all of the lost ones. Many agencies to include our own, are full of "young" officers. Too many "youngsters" is never a good, especially when it comprises the majority of your ranks. We need actual leaders, and teachers.... ones with experience who have been around the block once or twice, with nerves that have been tried and tested....

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Originally Posted by Atrax View Post
Out of curiosity, may I ask what aspect of the background process keeps people out?
To be honest, I would have to write you an entire dissertation or pose more of an academic based discussion in order to answer you fully. This is something I ponder often and integrate a lot of psychoanalysis towards. My best and most simple answer I can muster right now.... every single recruiter is different when it comes to agencies. As far as the academies goes, unless you are applying with a state, or large city agency in NC such as Raleigh, Durham, Charlotte, et cetera... you would have to attend the academy on your own, and hope to gain "sponsorship" with an agency. Meaning, you walk in and volunteer to basically do ride a longs, submit to a pre background screening and interview, and they will sign off for you to attend the academy. If you can acquire sponsorship, your tuition is waived by the state, you need to only pay for your books.

The academies technically have no "right" to ban any person from attending the academy unless they are a convicted felon, or have one of the state disqualifiers based on the NC Training and Standards Commission reqs. They will however, conduct a background as if you were an actual agency applicant. If they think you won't make it based on the local and surrounding agency requirements, they will be upfront with the applicant and tell them. Basically, we all know one another, we all work together, teach together, live near one another, so its no secret who is looking for what. Now they require the applicant to basically sign a waiver saying although they may meet the bare minimum per the state, they likely will not get hired based on their background. I think every single recruiter per the agency is different, and most instructors and academy directors know what the recruiters for various agencies like. For instance, my contact is the director, good friend, and he was my own instructor years ago. He knows what I like and dislike in an applicant. For me personally, I find I am different than most agencies such as Southern Pines, Cary, or the more competitive agencies. A poor driving record for example may not necessarily disqualify you with me giving a recommend for hire, whereas it may at another agency on that sole factor alone.

I look at the total picture..everything. Address history (how often do they move and jump around without a good reason such as military), criminal and credit history, driving, but mostly....personality. What have they done in their life so far? For me, I really dislike a young person, say 20-26 who still lives at home with mom, has never done anything but sing in the choir, and went to college and now they want to be a cop, they never drank a beer, never experienced life and only know the parameters of which their mommy drew for them. The candidates that fall into this category often times, when I meet them, do not demonstrate the sort of resiliency and character to be suitable for what we need. Contrary, many agencies like this sort of applicant. To me, this is the same dude that will likely panic, and either bail in a gun fight or be too eager to pull his weapon in fear because he's never been in a fist fight in his life, much less fired a weapon outside of the measly 40 hours they give you at the academy. A lot of what happens with a person in a life or death situation, as most of you on here know already, are pre conditioned responses. I personally believe, this is a combination of the person specifically (personality, background, upbringing, etc), but also combined with the training they have received to condition the body and mind to respond correctly in these situation. Sadly, everyone knows that we do not get the adequate training to even truly have a solid foundation. You get enough to maybe survive....the rest is of your mind, and who you are and what will you become. Most of us that have made it past the 3 year mark... have backgrounds that were not exactly a walk in the park. I do consider this, and ponder as to whether or not this is a variable to consider in what "makes a good officer".

I think its geographically driven as well as far as recruiting goes and what types of officers would be accepted. The sort of officers and mental toughness we need in my area, is not the sort of officer that Cary or Beverly Hills needs. But there is a catch here too... officers should be well rounded. I like a good personality, a person that demonstrated a history of resiliency, determination, maybe some trials and overcoming these trials, a person who I know wouldn't give up, and one who could be a leader one day... a problem solver, a person with an open mind. Young and impressionable isn't always the best way in my opinion, as many agencies seek out the "moldable". Moldable is good, if you have the right ones molding, sadly there aren't very good officers available to "mold" the new playdough that is coming in.

The last few officers I have recommended and that were hired, are officers who could NOT get a job anywhere else, everyone turned them down even though they met the standard for the state. For one I recommended, it was the fact that said officer experimented with some unusual narcotics as a teen. This said officer, cleaned their life up. Went into the military, became a great leader, soldier, parent.. all the above, and it has been over seven years. This said officer is one of the best officers in the entire patrol division in my opinion and will be an extraordinary leading officer one day. We are lucky to have that officer.. I have another one that was similar. That officer made a mistake in college.. but has led an upstanding life since then. No one would give that officer a chance for the one mistake alone, even though it would not bar the officer from the state reqs. I predict, this officer will be a sergeant in the next two years if the officer plays the cards right....

Flip side... I was asked to review a candidate that had just graduated. It was given to me as if it were urgent, and this was a must seen sort of deal.....he was late twenties, lived at home with mommy always, no history of any romantic life, no school, no military, no work history, (for me... equals...red flag, red flag, red flag....). I gave the person the benefit of the doubt and met the guy. I basically summarized his packet by the suspicion he will most definitely be on the sex offender registry within the next ten years, probably the predator list more specifically. There was no social skills, no personality, no life behind the eyes. Physically, he looked like he would blow away in the wind, and hadn't seen the light of day in over ten years..... he was not any person I could recommend. My summary statement.....HELL NO.....Not only hell no, but hell no as in...hell no not ever going to even consider again hell no...

Similarly, I had a recent app. The person had worked for a number of agencies... which was a red flag to me. Several agencies across three states... basically when I took the time to physically drive to and pull his records, (which many agencies won't do)... I found mounds and mounds and mounds of documentation of things like excessive force, wrecking patrol cars without any reason, erratic behaviors, and even dug further into the military background. DD214 looked great.. most agencies would have given him a green...but a few phone calls to specific people, they were screaming and pleading, HELL NO. lol.

Sometimes, the ones with mistakes make the best officers.

Ultimately, I believe it should be case by case, person by person. No one mistake is the same, and no one person is the same for me to be able to drop every applicant in a giant standardized pool.
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  #22  
Old 18 October 2016, 11:40
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Originally Posted by Sado_1 View Post
Yeah, this sounds insane!!!! I have a buddy of mine out in San Jose who keeps trying to sweet talk the benefits and pay out that way....then I did a cost of living analysis coupled with child care expenses for my two, and well...just to be able to live in a decent place...NOPE...the numbers aren't adding up! I certainly hope your own retirement wasn't effected in all of this. I think about how much I contribute every single month into my own in hopes that one day I can actually rest easy....my husband and I joke we may both be pushing shopping carts despite a potential LE retirement and an 18 series retirement..hmmmmm sounds shitty. I am sure you can also ascertain the "type" of kids coming into your schools now. My buddy complains that the few applicants they get, are your typical millennial's and either lazy, unmotivated, cry babies, scared, afraid, and/or all of the above. So sad, but the same can be said for military and many other professions. I sound like my father now...... ugh.



I like you Gavin... LOL.
Stay FAR FAR away from San Jose PD. They are in a tail spin. Perfect example of what happens when socialist progressives get hold of an agency/city. Went from being an example to now being "the example"
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  #23  
Old 18 October 2016, 19:06
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Very interesting, thanks for your response Sado.
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  #24  
Old 18 October 2016, 19:20
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Overly strict backgrounds are counterproductive in my opinion.
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  #25  
Old 18 October 2016, 22:14
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
Overly strict backgrounds are counterproductive in my opinion.
Depends what they are being overly strict about.
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  #26  
Old 19 October 2016, 00:03
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
If people are dissuaded from a law enforcement career by the current environment we're probably better off without them. It should be a calling, not just a career. I liken it to people not wanting to join the military because of the current POTUS. Things go in cycles and the pendulum will swing back again. Policing may not be as easy or fun as it was even ten years ago but a bad day of being a cop beats a good day as an accountant. I'm typing this parked on a hill looking down at the school I went to for accounting before dropping out to be a cop. Zero regrets at all and never a second thought.


Maybe a good idea would be to start making better use of the Reserves. The local PD here, the only difference between a Reserve and a full time guy is the Reserve doesn't get paid. County PD (Yes that is a thing in VA) Reserves aren't even allowed to carry a weapon and generally are only allowed to work traffic control at concerts and shit like that. But, you have to maintain the standards. I have noticed over the last few decades that if you have an activity with high standards and you are selective, people with high standards tend to want to be a part of it. Now take those people with high standards, in a unit with high standards, who join knowing that they will not be paid and are there solely to serve their community. They would also be somewhat immune to being pressured/coerced/threatened by Dept leadership, as they don't get paid anyway, wont get promoted anyway, don't have to worry about getting days off without pay etc.

Just a thought. I was asked by the local PD Chief here to be a Reserve. I politely declined. Why? Because of two things, one of his officers and I had a run in where I was simply trying to walk up and pass along some helpful information and the guy got all bladed off on me with his hand on his gun acting like I might be Al Qaeda, scared to death. The other reason is that half of the department weighs over 250. They look like slobs that were rejected from the County PD. So, although I wouldnt mind doing it and serving my community again, I wont be associated with that department, and I'm not doing it for the County, unarmed but for a flashlight and an orange vest. Fuck that.
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  #27  
Old 19 October 2016, 00:51
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Calif took care of the reserve programs. It used to have level 1,2, and 3 reserve designations.

Now, you have to go to the academy to just be a reserve. Thus, very very few reserves exist now.

Socialist republic of California.
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  #28  
Old 19 October 2016, 01:05
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
Overly strict backgrounds are counterproductive in my opinion.
I might agree if I knew what aspects are too restrictive.

I background the shit out of people. If something goes sideways, and you don't report it, or find it, and should have, you're screwed. If the appointing authority chooses to ignore what I put to paper it's on them.
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Old 19 October 2016, 01:11
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
If people are dissuaded from a law enforcement career by the current environment we're probably better off without them. It should be a calling, not just a career. I liken it to people not wanting to join the military because of the current POTUS. Things go in cycles and the pendulum will swing back again. Policing may not be as easy or fun as it was even ten years ago but a bad day of being a cop beats a good day as an accountant. I'm typing this parked on a hill looking down at the school I went to for accounting before dropping out to be a cop. Zero regrets at all and never a second thought.
You, Agoge, and Front Sight Bang give me hope.
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  #30  
Old 19 October 2016, 01:15
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Calif took care of the reserve programs. It used to have level 1,2, and 3 reserve designations.

Now, you have to go to the academy to just be a reserve. Thus, very very few reserves exist now.

Socialist republic of California.
Very true. 15 years ago the above was the case and they were a great resource. Usually trained in modules at a local community college. Now it's PC 832 with the firearms portion, or a full academy, and 832 does very little.
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  #31  
Old 19 October 2016, 02:05
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I might agree if I knew what aspects are too restrictive.

I background the shit out of people. If something goes sideways, and you don't report it, or find it, and should have, you're screwed. If the appointing authority chooses to ignore what I put to paper it's on them.
I had a big post typed out yesterday, accidentally hit "next thread" and lost it. Integrity, creepy behavior, and legitimate criminal activity should of course remain bright lines. But guys who used to fight a bit, stuff like that should probably be overlooked. Wild young man stuff. A choir boy who'd never had a fight and isn't able to squint at someone and send a message would have a tougher time.

My background investigator didn't want to hire me for various reasons (I was definitely not the central casting police applicant and my background investigation had some unique stuff in it) and a couple of the other ones persuaded him to give me a chance. I'd say I'm one of his favorite cops these days and I'd like to think I have an excellent reputation with my peers. It's always a crapshoot but cookie cutter one size fits all approaches can miss some good people.
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  #32  
Old 19 October 2016, 12:23
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Originally Posted by CA SGT View Post
Stay FAR FAR away from San Jose PD. They are in a tail spin. Perfect example of what happens when socialist progressives get hold of an agency/city. Went from being an example to now being "the example"
I will most definitely and no offense, but I will likely steer clear of Cali in general for now. LOL. I hope you stay safe out there bud. My hat is off to you in the utmost respects.

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Originally Posted by Atrax View Post
Very interesting, thanks for your response Sado.
You're most welcome Sir.

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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
Overly strict backgrounds are counterproductive in my opinion.
Agreed on a lot of things. Again, I think it is important to look at the entire picture, case by case, person by person. The same "problem" may not be the same for another, if that makes any sense.

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I might agree if I knew what aspects are too restrictive.

I background the shit out of people. If something goes sideways, and you don't report it, or find it, and should have, you're screwed. If the appointing authority chooses to ignore what I put to paper it's on them.
I agree... you get one chance to be honest with me. I think that is key though.... Honesty is always best policy. But I think for many larger agencies that are overly restrictive, or have a sort of "robotic" method of disqualifying applicants, they often miss good ones, whereas they let others in that "passed" but they missed the whole lack of social and personality skills. I think each person needs to be reviewed personally and very closely, and there entire file reviewed as a whole picture rather than a specific area of concern.
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  #33  
Old 19 October 2016, 12:40
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  #34  
Old 19 October 2016, 12:51
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Originally Posted by Massgrunt View Post
I had a big post typed out yesterday, accidentally hit "next thread" and lost it. Integrity, creepy behavior, and legitimate criminal activity should of course remain bright lines. But guys who used to fight a bit, stuff like that should probably be overlooked. Wild young man stuff. A choir boy who'd never had a fight and isn't able to squint at someone and send a message would have a tougher time.

My background investigator didn't want to hire me for various reasons (I was definitely not the central casting police applicant and my background investigation had some unique stuff in it) and a couple of the other ones persuaded him to give me a chance. I'd say I'm one of his favorite cops these days and I'd like to think I have an excellent reputation with my peers. It's always a crapshoot but cookie cutter one size fits all approaches can miss some good people.
I will say this. We are instructed to just write the report. No opinions or recommendations. No BI should be trying to DQ anyone.

Also, I give them one chance to add, delete, or change their app before we sit down. If you stand by it at that point it is gospel. Lies and omissions will hurt.

You're supposed to give the appointing authority a full picture of the person. If someone is listed in a police report or log you're obligated to include it.

Most character references are ground balls. They always provide a good reference. However if someone is found to have something negative to say and are willing to go on record it should be included.

If something goes south a few years later that document likely becomes part of the record. I don't want someone coming to me asking why I didn't include something or didn't include something that should have been easily found.

I had a kid in for his interview last night. He provided me three 50 year olds as his character references. Seriously? Your 25 years old. Give me three friends who know you, not Grandma's neighbor.
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Old 19 October 2016, 15:39
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He would have had valid reasons but chose to take a chance on me.
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  #36  
Old 20 October 2016, 15:06
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??

Here is what gets me. Young friend of mine just completed the physical PT testing for a local department.

Requirements: 25 pushups, 25 sit ups and a 1.5 mile run in 18:30 minutes or less. Hec, even my broken, fat, old, has been ass could do that!

But, all these guys in their 20s showing up, and about half failed! Some could not even finish the run in the amount of time. Or do 25 pushups or 25 sit up.

Why even bother to show up for the test if you know you cannot do 25 pushups. And according to him they were not even strict like Army standards.


And then another friend, in early 20s, went to an interview yesterday for a local PD. I told him to shave and wear a suit and tie. What does he do, shows up with a week old beard. "But, I trimmed it up. It looks nice so I should be ok."

I remember interviewing applicants for a LE position, albeit overseas, and was the same thing. Several of the youngsters came in wearing hip hop type fashion, sitting slouched in the chair, etc. And the best paying job at the time pretty much in the whole area. Who got hired? The one, and the only one out of a half dozen, who came wearing a tie, sat up straight in the chair and answered the questions, "Yes, Sir", "No, Sir". Sigh.

Or the young guys I talk to that want to become a cop, but then think they do not have to go to college. "Why does it matter? I am qualified enough. What does being a cop have to do with college?".

Well, guess what? That is just the way it is. Everyone who is getting hired in my area, veteran or not, the common denominator is that they have a college degree. It is what it is. Same with the Fire Dept. So if you want to be competitive, whether you like it or not, you had better knock out that Bachelor's Degree.
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  #37  
Old 20 October 2016, 15:13
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Sadly, with as much emphasis as there is today on working out, CrossFit, Spartan, etc., there is an even "greater" emphasis on video games and couch potatoes.

Working out requires self-motivation and drive to better oneself. It takes initiative to get up and get going...that initiative is greatly lacking today.

Until that changes, we will have a lot more weaklings than we do "in-shape" people. That includes LE candidates.
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  #38  
Old 20 October 2016, 15:20
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Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
Here is what gets me. Young friend of mine just completed the physical PT testing for a local department.

Requirements: 25 pushups, 25 sit ups and a 1.5 mile run in 18:30 minutes or less. Hec, even my broken, fat, old, has been ass could do that!

But, all these guys in their 20s showing up, and about half failed! Some could not even finish the run in the amount of time. Or do 25 pushups or 25 sit up.

Why even bother to show up for the test if you know you cannot do 25 pushups. And according to him they were not even strict like Army standards.

Or the young guys I talk to that want to become a cop, but then think they do not have to go to college. "Why does it matter? I am qualified enough. What does being a cop have to do with college?".
LP, the above are issues we deal these days.

When I administered new hire PT tests for my employer, we would get plenty of applicants who showed up and the first question was "what do I have to do to pass?" Most of them failed then asked if they would get another chance. Rarely was it a close call. They either smoked it or utterly failed. It was obvious that the failures never got on our website and looked at the standards for their age group or put in any effort to be physically fit. The test consists of 1 minute of push ups, 1 minute of sit-ups, a 1.5 mile run, sit and reach, and body fat test (by age group). It isn't hard to just pass the low bar we set.

We do not require a degree for hire, but considering the sheer number of applicants these days, the degree (and vets pref) are pretty much the standard just to get the applicant pool down to a manageable number. After years of this, it has affected promotion potential of some long time employees who were hired without a degree and have not put in the effort to obtain one. There are some solid dudes who can't promote and don't want to put in the time to get that piece of paper. I really can't feel sorry for them as the writing has been on the wall for some time now.
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  #39  
Old 20 October 2016, 15:35
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Was at a local gun shop the other day, and talking to the two young men, early 20s, working the counter. Started talking and both stated that they are just doing this job, as they both want to be cops and applying to various local PDs. Neither has a degree.

One weighs at least 350 pounds. The other one has those 2" hoops inserted and stretched into each of his ear lopes.

They have no SA or clue.

I directed them though to the US Marshall's office in Indy, said they were hiring.


I know for a fact that my city's PD and Fire Dept, though not a requirement, has not hired anyone without a bachelors degree in about the last ten years. As you stated, it is not required, but you will not be competitive enough to get to the top of the hiring list, or get enough points, unless you do have one. You need to have a bachelors degree and usually one other thing working for you (Being a veteran, volunteer FF with EMT certs, county corrections, management work experience, etc.)
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Old 20 October 2016, 21:03
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Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
Was at a local gun shop the other day, and talking to the two young men, early 20s, working the counter. Started talking and both stated that they are just doing this job, as they both want to be cops and applying to various local PDs. Neither has a degree.

One weighs at least 350 pounds. The other one has those 2" hoops inserted and stretched into each of his ear lopes.
I think this kid was in my juvenile justice class at the local community college. He was 300+ pounds, got winded walking from the parking lot to the classroom (100 meters, no stairs), and in his introduction to the class states "I've already got a job locked on with XYZ PD once I get my AAS in Police Science, then I'm either going to be an FBI agent or a CIA spy, I haven't decided". I just looked at my desk dumbfounded...
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