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Old 29 May 2019, 00:45
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Train Derailment

Yesterday at about 6am we had a train derail in the Village. I did a quick screen shot showing where it occurred. No injuries, no damaged homes, extremely lucky how it turned out.

https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/lo...d-d5dd51ff8295

Few things I took away that might sound obvious:

1. Pay attention to HAZMAT signs, keep a cheater-book in the car to help you ID and give other first-responders a good idea on what's happening. Also, so you don't die from it..

2. Dragging heavy train-cars on grass/soil tends to break water-mains and gas-lines underground. News to me. There is a lot of gas-line construction going on here, they use a lot of heavy equipment. To keep the trucks that work on the gas-line from sinking in the ground they use long wooden railroad ties to drive on. I didn't feel like dealing with the busted gas-lines on top of the train derailment, so I suggested using the ties to drag the cars over. Instead of cutting up and digging into the ground.

3. If you kick out one news agency, ya better kick'em all out.

4. Drones, get some dudes trained with drones and use them to survey what you have quickly. I'd used them to "patrol" areas like this, lots of goose-neckers doing all they can to get a picture.

Good job to everyone involved.
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Old 29 May 2019, 02:40
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Derailed train fires will fuck up the whole block. Even if it’s not hazmat threat, bleves will make you rethink how you are too close to the fire. I’ve seen end caps blow off of tanker cars and cut a swath through dense wood line. For several hundred feet. Read up on “Livingston Train Derailment”.

Bleve: A boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion (BLEVE, /ˈblɛviː/ BLEV-ee) is an explosion caused by the rupture of a vessel containing a pressurized liquid that has reached temperatures above its boiling point.

There is a dedicated contractor in my area that runs almost all rail car cleanup. The number I’ve heard is it’s 1 million an hour that the rail companies eat in lost revenue.
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Old 29 May 2019, 02:56
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Curious what effective capabilities you guys have as first responders to figure out what HAZ is on board. For trains, and everything else really.

I deal with a lot of HAZMAT, our system leads the industry but still leaves a lot to be desired IMO.
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Old 29 May 2019, 03:16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkdrver View Post
Curious what effective capabilities you guys have as first responders to figure out what HAZ is on board. For trains, and everything else really.

I deal with a lot of HAZMAT, our system leads the industry but still leaves a lot to be desired IMO.
ďBlue canaryĒ is a real thing.

Binos are about all we have. Iím unaware of any patrol level cop with ANY hazmat protection readily available. We have a robust hazmat section but they will be hours out before responding. Our volunteer firefighters are usually the best resource we have. Most are pro firefighters within the chem/petro industry.

Wiser app on IPhone is pretty helpful. You can make overlays for google maps with the product, size of release,wind and direction and can help plan accordingly until the professionals show up.
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Old 29 May 2019, 04:22
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2016 Emergency Response Guidebook

Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkdrver View Post
Curious what effective capabilities you guys have as first responders to figure out what HAZ is on board. For trains, and everything else really.

I deal with a lot of HAZMAT, our system leads the industry but still leaves a lot to be desired IMO.
I put this fucker in my bag/car in 2016 after I went to the class. Came in handy once, probably will again.
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Old 29 May 2019, 04:25
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There is a dedicated contractor in my area that runs almost all rail car cleanup. The number Iíve heard is itís 1 million an hour that the rail companies eat in lost revenue.
I'm hearing the same..
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Old 29 May 2019, 04:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 256 View Post
I put this fucker in my bag/car in 2016 after I went to the class. Came in handy once, probably will again.
We have one on board every time we fly. Doesn't help you guys though. I also have a copy of the HAZDEC in my pocket but that assumes I make it out of the fireball to hand it to you guys :)
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Old 29 May 2019, 04:47
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We have one on board every time we fly. Doesn't help you guys though. I also have a copy of the HAZDEC in my pocket but that assumes I make it out of the fireball to hand it to you guys :)
Iím going to need ya to try real hard to make it out of the fireball. The great thing is the Fire Chief lives in town. The PD only had the incident to fuck it up for about 4-5 minutes...
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Old 29 May 2019, 04:59
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Iím going to need ya to try real hard to make it out of the fireball.
LOL we agree.
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Old 29 May 2019, 06:18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 256 View Post
I put this fucker in my bag/car in 2016 after I went to the class. Came in handy once, probably will again.
Thanks for posting a photo..... I couldnít remember the damn name of the the thing. I have one in my vehicle. Wiser is based off that book and is probably easier for the younger guys to use.
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Old 29 May 2019, 07:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitebean54 View Post
There is a dedicated contractor in my area that runs almost all rail car cleanup. The number Iíve heard is itís 1 million an hour that the rail companies eat in lost revenue.
Both of these are true, some rail yards have flat cars with the contactor's equipment ready to go. I work with on the bigger Class 1 railroads on a daily basis and they personify the phrase "time is money".
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Old 29 May 2019, 09:08
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 256 View Post
I put this fucker in my bag/car in 2016 after I went to the class. Came in handy once, probably will again.
They also make smaller handbooks on this. There is an app for your phone. All trains are manifested and have car numbers and contents in them. The railroad companies still think the country runs on steam engines and are typically uncooperative as a rule. The trains in America carry the methyl ethel death of the world, often times right behind your kids school. My rule of thumb for doing security work that involves HAZMAT (Most Critical Infrastructure work does) is anything 3 or higher is significant, regardless if it flammable, toxic, reactive or corrosive.

Bleve's are serious shit when they involve LPG or some other explosive gas. It provides the perfect storm of air and fuel mixture when the container fails and mixes the vapor with air and exposes it to a direct ignition source. Pure LPG, gasoline or other fuel cannot burn or explode as it has no oxygen molecules. It needs to be mixed with air to ignite. Just think of your carburetor.

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Old 29 May 2019, 09:45
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Both of these are true, some rail yards have flat cars with the contactor's equipment ready to go. I work with on the bigger Class 1 railroads on a daily basis and they personify the phrase "time is money".
Yep, as a survivor of four derailments and hit once in the yard. Getting things up and running was first priority. Back in those days the RR used their own people.
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Old 29 May 2019, 10:47
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About a decade ago there was a train derailment over near Aiken SC involving some tanker cars carrying chlorine. The heavier than air gas rolled downhill into a neighborhood and made quite a mess. I only bring that up to point out that with some hazmat substances, downslope can be just as bad or worse than downwind.
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Old 29 May 2019, 11:27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1/ss nuke View Post
About a decade ago there was a train derailment over near Aiken SC involving some tanker cars carrying chlorine. The heavier than air gas rolled downhill into a neighborhood and made quite a mess. I only bring that up to point out that with some hazmat substances, downslope can be just as bad or worse than downwind.
Knowing the specific gravity of materials will help with this. Methane (Natural Gas) or the boiled off gas from leaking LNG carriers and tankers is more dangerous due to its .5 something SG which makes it float easier and mix with air causing the feared fuel air explosive. Where propane is .9 something and depending upon the weather, may flow more like water than a vapor.

Another thing to consider is flash points and flammability ranges. Some with a broader range are more likely to ignite than others, like methane, with a very thin tolerance of rich and lean. Flashpoints are the temperatures at which a particular organic compound gives off sufficient vapor to ignite in air.
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Old 29 May 2019, 14:02
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💥BLEVE💥

BLEVE’s are no joke and I was fortunate to witness one at a considerably close distance...I mean fortunate in that there were minimal Good Guy injuries/deaths that had occurred that possibly could have happened.

About 8 yrs ago while assigned as base support to a FOB near KAF, a ‘local’ w/ explosives on a motorcycle somehow entered the Soak Yard where there were several Jingle truck tankers that contained fuel waiting to be cleared to enter into the FOB. He blew himself up near the Tankers that caused several to go. This happened while 2 other Bee’s & myself were working on a project about 500yds away, but behind a row of HESCO’s. After taking cover & waiting about a minute for more, we climbed up one to see what happened. After watching the scene for about 10-15 minutes, the fire eventually made it’s way to 1-2 other tankers...what happened next I will never forget & actually have video of it that was taken as it happened.

After the BLEVE occurred & we checked ourselves to make sure that we were all Ok, my buddy who was a Volunteer Firefighter and Crane Operator that has years of experience working at gas & oil refinery construction projects explained to us what had just happened.

The next day we had to go in there to start cleaning up the mess.
Whatever hadn't vaporized in the explosions & fires that was still w/in the soak yard was picked up & hauled away...that included part of a human jawbone that we turned over to the Force Pro guys.

Last edited by seabee1226; 29 May 2019 at 14:29.
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Old 29 May 2019, 15:59
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Quote:
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Yep, as a survivor of four derailments and hit once in the yard. Getting things up and running was first priority. Back in those days the RR used their own people.
It's quicker and cheaper for them to outsource it.
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Old 29 May 2019, 16:08
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For some reason I have always gravitated towards training courses that focuses on accidents, investigations and hazmat which involve trains.

I have attended a few training courses put on by Norfolk Southern in the past, and I just recently attended some that was held here in Raleigh.

What I found interesting is that NS is using their new hazmat safety train which is comprised of:

A 2,000-horsepower, 273-ton locomotive painted in honor of emergency responders with insignia recognizing police, fire, and emergency services
Two boxcars converted into classrooms, each capable of holding 30 people
Four styles of tank cars, including DOT-105, DOT-111, DOT-112, and DOT-117, to illustrate a variety of car valves and fittings
Two 89-foot flatcars designed to transport intermodal containers.

It was awesome training. The trainers told me that they have never had a representative from the Medical Examiners Office attend or even ask to attend. I found it very informative.

Already this year I have worked numerous fatalities involving pedestrians vs trains (Amtrak), but I have a feeling I will be working one which will be comprised of cargo, hazmat etc.. in the near future

When I brought up the scenarios that the forum members have stated/discussed in other posts, the Pathologists act like I am from the planet tardo and have no desire or interest in themselves attending or the investigators attending anything dealing with Hazmat. That also includes tractor trailers hauling fuel, chemicals or hazmat.
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Old 29 May 2019, 16:37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Fat Guy View Post
All trains are manifested and have car numbers and contents in them.
Similar for us. The transport companies are mostly aware of what they're carrying....mostly.

That's a whole different discussion though.

For anyone who's responded to a major commercial transportation mishap, I am wondering how rapidly first responders have access to their HAZMAT information. Pretty sure I know the answer.
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Old 29 May 2019, 19:13
Armitage12 Armitage12 is offline
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On the Bleve, we've had a good explanation before:

http://socnet.com/showpost.php?p=105...&postcount=616

There's a useful video at the link to help show how it works.
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