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Old 30 May 2019, 09:37
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Dropping IED's from drones?

This was put out today by Islamic Jihad - dropping an IED on an IDF tank.

Whilst the actual danger can be debated, I'm curious
as to if this is a new tactic or seen before in the ME?

https://www.ynet[dot]co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5517925,00.html
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Old 30 May 2019, 10:05
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Originally Posted by Hoepoe View Post
This was put out today by Islamic Jihad - dropping an IED on an IDF tank.

Whilst the actual danger can be debated, I'm curious
as to if this is a new tactic or seen before in the ME?

https://www.ynet[dot]co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5517925,00.html
Not new, Daesh perfected the technique a while ago. IS drones significantly impeded the liberation of Mosul.
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Old 30 May 2019, 11:01
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Its also a new threat that is at least considered in the West. New drones have the power and sophistication to cart a moderate load and use the gimble and GPS capabilities to know exactly where they are.

I have no idea of the ones used by IS, but modern aircraft in the US could be used to transport a device between a grenade and a claymore. Range to target and othor conditions apply.
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Old 30 May 2019, 11:06
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Saudi M1 was taken out by one if I remember right, dropped into the open hatch
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Old 30 May 2019, 11:59
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There is a ton of Daesh footage out there, accurate drops into vehicle hatches from a few hundred feet, and accurate strikes on dismounts. This slowed the liberation of Mosul by several weeks.
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Old 30 May 2019, 12:02
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There was also an assassination attempt on Nicolas Maduro with one last year.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-45073385
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Old 30 May 2019, 12:10
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There was also an assassination attempt on Nicolas Maduro with one last year.
That's not confirmed.
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Old 30 May 2019, 12:28
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Not new, Daesh perfected the technique a while ago. IS drones significantly impeded the liberation of Mosul.
Saw that on the Frontline episode about liberating Mosul. Amazed me how quickly things have changed in the relatively short time since I got out of the military.
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Old 30 May 2019, 12:38
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That's not confirmed.
Is there suspicion it was a false flag?
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Old 30 May 2019, 13:15
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Is there suspicion it was a false flag?
It isn't confirmed.
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Old 30 May 2019, 13:38
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Saudi M1 was taken out by one if I remember right, dropped into the open hatch
Don't know what the range with payload is on these things, but I imagine that if it's a quad-copter type drone it can't be too far.

Which begs the question why wasn't the tank buttoned up so close to the enemy?
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Old 30 May 2019, 13:52
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Don't know what the range with payload is on these things, but I imagine that if it's a quad-copter type drone it can't be too far.

Which begs the question why wasn't the tank buttoned up so close to the enemy?
World War Two called, they want their definition of "battlefield" returned. Who is the enemy? That twelve-year-old kid in a second-floor bedroom with a RC unit? Now factor in retrans capabilities and the ability to extend the range of control.

Consider the nature of the battle space, in conflict against irregular forces that blend in with the civilian populace.
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Old 30 May 2019, 13:56
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Don't know what the range with payload is on these things, but I imagine that if it's a quad-copter type drone it can't be too far.
You might be surprised. I have a relatively cheap one I got at Best Buy, farthest I've flown it from my position is about 2 miles, non-line of sight. That was signal limited, I could do much better with good LOS/bigger drone/didn't care about making a round trip.
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Old 30 May 2019, 15:08
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Don't know what the range with payload is on these things, but I imagine that if it's a quad-copter type drone it can't be too far.
?
You'd be surprised and/or terrified at some of the build forums out there. You can build a hex or octo for a reasonable price, and it's not hard if you've got an electronically geeky kid around. I've seen (but can't find again ATM) places that talk about the build process, right down to sharing the hardware and software used.

Add in stuff like Paparazzi UAV, and everything becomes disturbingly easy.

Then you get posts like this...
https://diydrones(dot)com/forum/topics/looking-people-who-can-help-build-drone-with-10kg-payload-and-gps
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Old 30 May 2019, 15:11
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Intellectual Ventures can zap mosquitos with a laser. Vehicle mounted CIWS? Something with Freq jamming? Anti-Drone drones (imagine that MOS). Can't be too hard to come up with something to jack up drones? I think in Mosul they resorted to good old fashioned full choke shotguns, if I recall a video correctly, LOL.
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Old 30 May 2019, 15:37
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Originally Posted by Polypro View Post
Intellectual Ventures can zap mosquitos with a laser. Vehicle mounted CIWS? Something with Freq jamming? Anti-Drone drones (imagine that MOS). Can't be too hard to come up with something to jack up drones? I think in Mosul they resorted to good old fashioned full choke shotguns, if I recall a video correctly, LOL.
Where have you been while we were spending millions to figure out how to do counter-UAS, what with your simple solutions?

Nope, the drones in Mosul stayed well out of small arms range, and could not be actioned by aircraft. I was not exaggerating when I wrote (twice now...in this thread) that the UAS threat in Mosul significantly delayed the liberation of Mosul. Stopped it dead in its tracks for weeks. Counter-UAS is something I know very well.

There has been a lot of time and money invested in counter-UAS tech. There is no "one-size fits all" counter-UAS tech or techniques. The most effective counter-UAS system is raptors. There are obvious supply-side issues there.

Jamming can be problematic, as that often involves the UAS you want to jam falling out of the sky, explosive payload and all. Systems to take over control of UAS can be equally problematic. Some UAS systems do not require active control, and are GPS-controlled. Once you start jamming GPS, you are jamming...GPS.
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Old 30 May 2019, 16:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
World War Two called, they want their definition of "battlefield" returned. Who is the enemy? That twelve-year-old kid in a second-floor bedroom with a RC unit? Now factor in retrans capabilities and the ability to extend the range of control.

Consider the nature of the battle space, in conflict against irregular forces that blend in with the civilian populace.
I see your point, but if it's a case that the battlefield is everywhere, and particularly urban areas, it should be SOP to button up in that environment or close to it.

And I'll take HEAT for this (because of the history of anti-tank warfare), but a UAV/UAS with a small package shouldn't be able to defeat armor that easily.
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Old 30 May 2019, 16:43
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I think in Mosul they resorted to good old fashioned full choke shotguns, if I recall a video correctly, LOL.
Bagram as well. Actually did this. No luck unfortunately.
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Old 30 May 2019, 16:50
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There are obvious supply-side issues there.
Can't they just make some more..?

I did some research on this for a client a few months ago. Some cities (Palo Alto being one) have banned the use of drones completely inside their city limits. The tough part being, at least from my research, you can't counter them in the United States. The US Department of Defense and Energy are the only agencies authorized for counter-drone in the United States. We thought about jamming devices that would simply return the drone to the operator, but..

Congress enacted provisions for the Department of Defense and Energy to "use reasonable force to disable, damage, or destroy" drones over select facilities through the National Defense Authorization Act of 2017...

That's only over "select facilities" all well. Not to mention I would assume "disabling" would be the same as "jamming.'' Schematics..

LE and private security's hands are tied. Lots of implications when you start countering them. Nothing better then watching a baseball game or mowing my lawn with drones falling out of the sky.

I think I could help ya out with a sling-shot and some marbles.
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Old 30 May 2019, 17:00
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The biggest problem with weaponized commercial drones is government policy.

Drone C2 operates in the amateur bands, which are unregulated worldwide for the most part. Fixed-wing drones, for now, use the 430 MHz band for C2. Rotary wing drones operate primarily in the 2.4 and 5 GHz bands; which is also the same bands used for WiFi and Bluetooth.



The siege of Mosul highlighted a big problem with cUAS: Jamming the C2 frequencies also means that WiFi and Bluetooth also go down. Additionally, the Iraqis didn't want the bands jammed because they were also using captured drones to do ISR on ISIS positions.

Throw in the fact that there are several dozen agencies and companies that all claim they have 'THE' solution to hostile drones. Which is BS in my opinion. These so-called experts can't even tell you what the on-board receiver, or ground-control receiver, sensitivity is for these hostile systems; and it's kind of important to know that stuff.

Weaponized drones use the electromagnetic spectrum; and, for now, they're using the amateur bands for their command, control, telemetry, and sensor feeds. Defeating them involves denying them use of the spectrum. It's a two-part process: first, you listen for their transmitters and rapidly gather the parametric data. Second, you pass the parametric data to your electronic attack platform and attack the receivers; so they can't receive instructions from their ground control station.

Right now, no one can decide how to temporarily dominate selected parts of the EM spectrum to deny its use by hostile drones. So far, the US government spent billions of dollars trying to find a solution in the last four years. Still haven't got it right.

And yes, I was involved in this drone problem too. Thankfully, I handed it off to someone else. Right now, there are more PowerPoint presentations 'identifying' the problem than there were drone attacks. WTF?
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