SOCNET

Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > U.S. Army Special Operations > Special Forces

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 2 March 2009, 21:07
Greenhat
Visitor
 
Posts: n/a
Always good to have a great team, Chief. Thanks for your service and for pushing to maintain the standards. Us old, broke farts appreciate it.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 3 March 2009, 02:07
Guy's Avatar
Guy Guy is offline
#AllLionsMatter
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: CONUS @ the moment
Posts: 13,207
Lightbulb 90 days...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 180A View Post
it is not good when a guy straight out of the Q course can not pass a pt test.
To pass or he's gone!

In the old days under LTC Toney...The "Os" had too first!: pass the PT Test just to command an ODA and serve in the battalion.

Stay safe.
__________________
Quote:
Education is acquired through the formal institutions like school, colleges, and universities, whereas knowledge is gained from the real-life experiences.
Quote:
Education is all about gaining theoretical knowledge in the classroom or any institution. Training is a way to develop specific skills, whereas education is a typical system of learning.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 3 March 2009, 04:36
Tracy's Avatar
Tracy Tracy is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Feb 1997
Location: West
Posts: 11,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by 180A View Post
Hey, I am saying, it is not good when a guy straight out of the Q course can not pass a pt test.
I agree that it's not good. Ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 180A View Post
I didn't say anything about guys who have been around a while and have been on the go for years on end. I know how it is, I have only spent a couple months a year at home in the last 6 yrs, but I still manage to do something for PT along with other guys in group.
On my first team as a 180A in 1986, we had two Big Clydesdales: Our Junior Medic (Newbie) and Intel Sgt.(Old and Beat Up). Did a diagnostic PT test and they failed the run. OK, so we had a 'chat' and we went one step further: We started afternoon PT M-W-F for the whole team. Focusing on runs. Nothing crazy, just started working the lungs and technique. Six weeks later they passed another diagnostic with a good time buffer.

Our Team Sgt almost had to sell his immortal soul to get the afternoons off from regular duty days. This was during the heady days of "Centralized Planning, Decentralized Execution". Translation: The Group will do your thinking for you, just carry out The Plan. Patri, Fili, Spiritu Sancti... Naturally, we continued the afternoon runs to 'monitor' performance; which beat some of the classroom instruction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 180A View Post
I don't know how it was in the 60s or 70s, I wasn't there, but today on teams there is always time for PT, even if we have to do it late in the evenings or at 0430.
Well, Noah was our small-boat instructor, David handled Weapons and Joshua was the Demo Leader. Moses was Sr Commo; until he dropped one of the decrypt tablets. Now we have 10 instead of 15 commandments. Fun times during commo shots. That damned Burning Bush Receiver would attract velociraptors...

There's always time for PT, but it has to be tempered with Mission. Sure 0430 sounds good, but... I kicked PT studs out of the Army because they couldn't do land nav or MOS-specific tasks. I kept Big Guys on my teams because they knew their jobs better than anyone else. I made the effort to help them stay in shape.

When we were at Bad Tolz, Winter PT started at 0730 because that was sunrise. Along comes new leadership who decides that the Army starts at 0630, so we start at 0630. All of our run routes were off post, over cobblestones, black ice, etc. Running injuries went up, PT readiness went down. Pushed back to 0730, we got back in the groove. Then, Bn Ski Training commenced in mid-January through Mid-February. Of course we had to do PT before skiing. Injuries went up again. Suspended PT until Mid-February, with two weeks to knock the PT rust off.

Granted, many of us could have gotten up at 0430 or worked out at 1930; but ski maintenance came first, then team and company meetings, then set up for the next day's training. Our ski training was exhaustive. Then the Tm Sgt and I had NCOER's, training concepts, 10% inventory checks, counseling, etc. Sometimes we conducted training at night to cover down on mandatory training requirements. Not the silly stuff either. Us Dive-Qualified folks had some 'fun' trying to do monthly requals during all these events. I was also an MFF-JM.

We were in great shape, but the shape didn't conform to a diagnostic APFT.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 3 March 2009, 17:38
180A 180A is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Ft. Campbell, KY
Posts: 44
Tracy,

you wouldn't happen to know Billy Waugh would you?

GreeHat, thanks, and thank you for your service. I wouldn't trade this job for anything, its fun and rewarding and I will be damned if I haven't learned somehing every day in this job.

Hey Guy, would that be General Toney??
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 3 March 2009, 20:52
25Diver 25Diver is offline
Rocket Man
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: No one place for to long
Posts: 261
For everyone's info here times are a changing and if a guy doesn't pass the PT test with the new standard which is actually more difficult than the old one and includes more events...I am a fairly new instructor who

1. Is tired of seeing fat ass new guys with no excuse
2. Is tired of seeing guys who think they should have the tab pinned on day one of the Q
3. Is tired of seeing guys who have zero military bearing.
4. Thinks we need to go back to the old selection where we weed out the guys that cant land nav. and stop wasting our time and the Army's money on PCSing guys here that I could of told you shouldn't have been here in the first place.
5.I am tired of seeing guys show up to the team who aren't motivated and think that this is the pinnacle of life and have nothing left to strive for.

Now I wouldn't consider myself a good team guy or instructor if I didn't have a solution...I will absolutely ensure that the standard is enforced and if the guy is a dirtbag in any way shape or form he's gone.They will be expected on my end to perform every task without complaint, I was terrified to tell an instructor that I thought something wasn't fair, I did as I was told and attempted to absorb everything I could because that is what I volunteered for. Put that in your pipe and smoke and if you don't like it too bad I don't care about student feelings I care about the guys that were my family and still are My TEAM I had to leave and have to now send these guys to.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 3 March 2009, 21:45
25Diver 25Diver is offline
Rocket Man
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: No one place for to long
Posts: 261
Before I forget there is one thing I didn't mention if you are going to post something about the standards in the course and speak as if you know how things on the team are ran at least make sure you've graduated the course I wont mention names but if this applies think about it. Also remember this I believe it was said that Ranger school was just that a school but Battalion is a way of life. Very similarly the Q course is just that its the basics once you get to a team everything is built upon that and you have to think outside the box and the learning curve is steep so master the basics. It took me a while to actually realize how powerful we can be when I reflect on it its pretty crazy.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 3 March 2009, 21:51
18C4V's Avatar
18C4V 18C4V is offline
BTDT
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: California
Posts: 2,596
When I went through selection and the Q. PT standards, academic standards, and peers were in effect. But then again, when I went through the Q, only 250 SF soldiers per year were graduating. I heard that they tried to bump it up to 750 per year. Sounds like standards and peers aren't being upheld in order to expand SF which violates one of our SOF Truths.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 3 March 2009, 22:11
Hot Mess's Avatar
Hot Mess Hot Mess is offline
In Vino Veritas
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Where you vacation
Posts: 11,101
Quote:
Originally Posted by 18C4V View Post
I heard that they tried to bump it up to 750 per year. Sounds like standards and peers aren't being upheld in order to expand SF which violates one of our SOF Truths.
Yep and yep.
__________________
Come on boys, you got to do it right, pray to the moon in the middle of the night
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 3 March 2009, 22:29
25Diver 25Diver is offline
Rocket Man
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: No one place for to long
Posts: 261
I couldn't agree with snaplink and 18cv4 more you hit it right on the head and to plague the problem further the O's way up the COC use this as a judgment of there time in command they think that you can just train anyone and you should hear the things that they think you can do with an idiot when really there is no hope. I am sure most of you know this but its not just Army SF, this is an issue in AFSOC, NAVSOC too... I want to help and I am willing to teach but there are somethings that have to be brought to the table with the soldier i.e. everyday soldier stuff you have to have that or you will be so far behind the power curve its sick.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 4 March 2009, 01:11
Tracy's Avatar
Tracy Tracy is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Feb 1997
Location: West
Posts: 11,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25Diver View Post
...
1. Is tired of seeing fat ass new guys with no excuse
2. Is tired of seeing guys who think they should have the tab pinned on day one of the Q
3. Is tired of seeing guys who have zero military bearing.
4. Thinks we need to go back to the old selection where we weed out the guys that cant land nav. and stop wasting our time and the Army's money on PCSing guys here that I could of told you shouldn't have been here in the first place.
5.I am tired of seeing guys show up to the team who aren't motivated and think that this is the pinnacle of life and have nothing left to strive for...
Item 4 caught my attention. WTF? You can PM me if you'd like.

As to the other four and the new/old PT test; if you can swing it, good on you. I won't argue with you.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 4 March 2009, 01:15
Tracy's Avatar
Tracy Tracy is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Feb 1997
Location: West
Posts: 11,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by 180A View Post
Tracy,

you wouldn't happen to know Billy Waugh would you?

GreeHat, thanks, and thank you for your service. I wouldn't trade this job for anything, its fun and rewarding and I will be damned if I haven't learned somehing every day in this job.

Hey Guy, would that be General Toney??

Never met Billy Waugh that I recall, but his beers are on me if I ever do.

I was General Toney's TAC NCO in the SF O Course. Great man that I highly respect.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 4 March 2009, 11:58
C-M-R C-M-R is offline
Scotty's Mommy
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Loup City NE
Posts: 1,149
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by 180A View Post

you wouldn't happen to know Billy Waugh would you?

LMAO!! Tracy is old but not that old. Sheesh! My older sister knows some pretty good Billy Waugh stories

Agree with Tracy on Gen Toney being one of the true good guys.
__________________
Of course I'm hot....in flashes.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 4 March 2009, 12:15
Tracy's Avatar
Tracy Tracy is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Feb 1997
Location: West
Posts: 11,158
Quote:
Originally Posted by C-M-R View Post
LMAO!! Tracy is old but not that old. Sheesh!...
Thanks. I think...
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 4 March 2009, 21:13
C-M-R C-M-R is offline
Scotty's Mommy
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Loup City NE
Posts: 1,149
Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracy View Post
Thanks. I think...
My pleasure

Hey you are younger than me and Chuck too.
__________________
Of course I'm hot....in flashes.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 4 March 2009, 21:51
The Fat Guy's Avatar
The Fat Guy The Fat Guy is offline
The Sagacious One
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Pushing string down the hall
Posts: 14,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by 25Diver View Post
For everyone's info here times are a changing and if a guy doesn't pass the PT test with the new standard which is actually more difficult than the old one and includes more events...I am a fairly new instructor who

1. Is tired of seeing fat ass new guys with no excuse
2. Is tired of seeing guys who think they should have the tab pinned on day one of the Q
3. Is tired of seeing guys who have zero military bearing.
4. Thinks we need to go back to the old selection where we weed out the guys that cant land nav. and stop wasting our time and the Army's money on PCSing guys here that I could of told you shouldn't have been here in the first place.
5.I am tired of seeing guys show up to the team who aren't motivated and think that this is the pinnacle of life and have nothing left to strive for.

Now I wouldn't consider myself a good team guy or instructor if I didn't have a solution...I will absolutely ensure that the standard is enforced and if the guy is a dirtbag in any way shape or form he's gone.They will be expected on my end to perform every task without complaint, I was terrified to tell an instructor that I thought something wasn't fair, I did as I was told and attempted to absorb everything I could because that is what I volunteered for. Put that in your pipe and smoke and if you don't like it too bad I don't care about student feelings I care about the guys that were my family and still are My TEAM I had to leave and have to now send these guys to.
25,

Amen

When I was in Key West, I felt it was my job to keep the bloodline pure. When an instructor asked if we should drop someone I always asked "Do you want him on your team? Will you dive with him? Any one that is an instructor within the SF community needs to look at their job as just that. Just like the Germans that cull a bad pup from a litter, instructors have to constantly ask "Will I dive, jump, shoot, fight trust my life to this guy? Its the only control we have (or had in my case, as I relieved Greenhat as Moses' driver). You younger guys (Sorry Chief, you hit the 5th Legion 4 years after I left) do not realize we went through the SF baby thing back in the early 80's. Bottom line is that its our pedigree to keep pure or allow it to be dilluted.
__________________
No one will take better care of us, than us: Suicide Hotline: 1-800-273-8255
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 24 March 2009, 04:20
Guy's Avatar
Guy Guy is offline
#AllLionsMatter
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: CONUS @ the moment
Posts: 13,207
Quote:
Originally Posted by 180A View Post
Hey Guy, would that be General Toney??
Yes. An "O" could NOT command an ODA until he passed a PT test, swim test & 12mi ruck all in one-day. and it usually was completed by lunch every time I saw'em.

Stay safe.
__________________
Quote:
Education is acquired through the formal institutions like school, colleges, and universities, whereas knowledge is gained from the real-life experiences.
Quote:
Education is all about gaining theoretical knowledge in the classroom or any institution. Training is a way to develop specific skills, whereas education is a typical system of learning.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 17:33.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
SOCNET 1996-2018