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  #61  
Old 5 August 2020, 12:17
Davelrrp Davelrrp is offline
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Last edited by Fast Eddie; 5 August 2020 at 16:01. Reason: Arguing
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  #62  
Old 5 August 2020, 12:24
smp52 smp52 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KS11 View Post
Explosive qualities of AN discussion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Janitor View Post
Explosive qualities of AN discussion
See my post #38, it links to the ATF/EPA/OSHA document Chemical Advisory: Safe Storage, Handling, and Management of Ammonium Nitrate dated 2013. Pretty much provides answers to most questions. I've downloaded the full pdf and attached it here for reference. The summary of lessons learned from accidents are as follows:

Quote:
AN will self-compress/self-confine under some conditions, becoming much more likely to explode.

AN is at risk for explosion when stored near other material that can add fuel to the AN – such as grain, sugar, seeds, sawdust, and most especially petroleum fuels such as diesel.

AN is a powerful oxidizer and a rich source of nitrate, which provides energy to an explosion. Thus, the presence of fuel and/or heat (and especially both) near AN is a very high hazard situation.
In conducting the failure analysis, the event & causal factors tree/fault tree would ideally lay out the AND/OR sequence of the events and conditions. Just my guess at this point, but all three conditions noted in the advisory could have been met in improper storage conditions at the port.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf AN Advisory.pdf (241.7 KB, 4 views)
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  #63  
Old 5 August 2020, 12:39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
Well it seems to me almost like the heat of the fire aerosolized the AFNO making it go off in the equivalent of a fuel-air explosion. Is that even a thing?

Either way- 2700 tons of AFNO is a goddamned lot of explosives. I guess Hezbollah won't be planting any roadside bombs for a while.

AN =/= ANFO

That was part of my point/question.
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  #64  
Old 5 August 2020, 12:56
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I worked with ANFO for several years as a (strip) Coal Miner. Storing that stuff is a pain, as it will harden up in a fairly short period of time. The bins had electric vibrators that were supposed to help loosen it up so we could fill our truck. Often we had to climb up and beat the sides with a sledge hammer as it got too hard. Several times we had to actually get into the bin with a pry bar and chip at it. Fumes made this effort a pain in the ass.

Civilian storage and accountability of explosives leaves a lot to be desired in the U.S., so I imagine that safety in other places would be lacking too.

An example of OSHA being a joke, our big explosives trucks had a sticker saying 'no smoking' on the dash, right over an ash that was always overflowing with butts. That truck never got a gig.
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  #65  
Old 5 August 2020, 13:07
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Ratios...

The long term storage in improper conditions allows for significant degradation and oxidation of the product. It's quite possible the the stoichiometric ratio found "perfect conditions" throughout that day and something as simple a door opening causing a spark, a welder, grinder, etc could have started the deflagration leading to detonation.

Stoichiometric ratios very often come into play in situations such as this. Shock sensitivity due to temperature, degradation and prill size/pulverization/hardening of the fertilizer are also a factor. I was deeply involved in a case analysis of a firefighter who was killed by a similar, albeit much smaller explosion involving ammonium nitrate.

I will be curious to see the chain of events that led to this. Not that we'll probably ever get the truth...
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  #66  
Old 5 August 2020, 13:52
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Last edited by Fast Eddie; 5 August 2020 at 16:03. Reason: Arguing
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  #67  
Old 5 August 2020, 13:56
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I'm guessing that it was probably an accident/incompetence due to poor oversight.
My thoughts exactly.
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  #68  
Old 5 August 2020, 14:57
Davelrrp Davelrrp is offline
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Last edited by Fast Eddie; 5 August 2020 at 16:04. Reason: Arguing
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  #69  
Old 5 August 2020, 15:36
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Last edited by Fast Eddie; 5 August 2020 at 16:26. Reason: Arguing
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  #70  
Old 5 August 2020, 16:00
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Stop!

Last edited by Fast Eddie; 5 August 2020 at 16:25. Reason: Arguing
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  #71  
Old 5 August 2020, 16:10
Steve40th Steve40th is offline
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The base I am working on raised Force Protection level on Sat, prior to this. And they said ot had to do with COVID 19. Hmmmm
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  #72  
Old 5 August 2020, 18:55
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There are quite a few videos of the damage in this thread at /mapporn, including this interactive slider image.
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  #73  
Old 5 August 2020, 19:20
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There is a video going around that shows a dark object heading towards the initial fire, then it hits and the large explosion occurs. Don't know how real it is though.
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  #74  
Old 5 August 2020, 19:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleTx View Post
There is a video going around that shows a dark object heading towards the initial fire, then it hits and the large explosion occurs. Don't know how real it is though.
From where, the sky?
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  #75  
Old 5 August 2020, 19:41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poison View Post
From where, the sky?
Yes. Same position of most cameras, but has the object coming down at about 30 degrees from left to right. Here it is...
https://www.********.***/alitnvegas/videos/10217877126582945

*** replace with "com"
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  #76  
Old 5 August 2020, 19:50
BadKarma BadKarma is offline
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I saw this one on youtube, looks fake to me.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ntIewJpoPkU
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  #77  
Old 5 August 2020, 21:35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KS11 View Post
AN =/= ANFO

That was part of my point/question.
Yes, yes. I get it.

My question was is it is possible for either AN or ANFO or whatever to get superheated by a conflagration to the point it vaporizes and has a fuel-air explosive effect above and beyond what it normally would.
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  #78  
Old 5 August 2020, 21:38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakoZeroSix View Post
Yes, yes. I get it.

My question was is it is possible for either AN or ANFO or whatever to get superheated by a conflagration to the point it vaporizes and has a fuel-air explosive effect above and beyond what it normally would.
I belive the answer is yes. ..
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  #79  
Old 5 August 2020, 21:46
tm3e tm3e is offline
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According to wikipedia -"When heated, ammonium nitrate decomposes non-explosively into gases of oxygen, nitrogen, and water vapor; however, it can be induced to decompose explosively by detonation into nitrous oxide and water vapor."
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  #80  
Old 5 August 2020, 21:48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CB View Post
From the former captain of the ship:



"They could have used it for their [agricultural] fields."

2,700 tons (assuming a metric ton or "long ton = 2,204 lbs) means that nearly six million pounds of fertilizer sat unused for seven years. How much food could that have generated if it had been given to farmers?
Lots of variables on exact nitrogen needs (previous crop, soil conditions, yield, crop, etc), but not often youíd need to apply more than 100lbs of actual nitrogen per acre. So thatís 294 lbs of ammonium nitrate per acre on the high side. Thatís over 20,000 acres of wheat and at that level of N should yield really well, so 2-3 million bushels of wheat.

In the grand scheme of things, thatís not a lot... US planted over 45 million acres of wheat last year.
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