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  #1281  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:01
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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Who gives a shit if anyone is credentialed, diploma'd, or SME in regards to finance?

Act like you are in the same room and have common courtesy.

All this pissing is ruining a good thread.

I am on the pessimistic side of crypto currency, but I'd like to learn more.

Don't get this thread shut down because folks can't discuss like adults.
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  #1282  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:06
Broker Broker is offline
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I don't want it shut down. I've been discussing here a year and have actually learned things.
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  #1283  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:07
Paul85 Paul85 is offline
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Quote:
In all seriousness however, what a sad person like me should buy if he wants to hodl?

Are there any cryptos we beginners and maybe even pros should stay away from?
I'd be very grateful if someone, anyone, could shed light on this.
My question is aimed at people here who have traded and worked with cryptos and who have solid knowledge about them. Thank you in advance for any help.
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  #1284  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:12
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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In order to facilitate further discussion, let's discuss currency.

What is currency?

IMO, it is a thing that hold universal value and can be easily traded & exchanged.

Instead of hauling cows for beans, we can exchange by hand or interweb.

It should be national but not necessarily local.

For example, when a crash occurs (Venezuela or Argentina for example), although they had their own currency, the value plummeted and the dollar was the form of exchange.

So, why can't cryptocurrency be valid?

Various previous posts have shown that it can be traded, exchanged to purchase goods/services.

BTW, CV that was real nice of you to get KidA a bike. When's the wedding?

Last edited by 8654maine; 19 October 2018 at 09:17.
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  #1285  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:17
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The textbook definition is something that's widely accepted for goods and services, serves as a unit of account and the last factor is that it serves as a storage of wealth.
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  #1286  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:18
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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The textbook definition is something that's widely accepted for goods and services, serves as a unit of account and the last factor is that it serves as a storage of wealth.
Does bitcoin serve that function?
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  #1287  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:19
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My position is that it meets 2 of those 3. But I'm willing to be convinced that it's widely accepted but I just don't see it
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  #1288  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:21
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I wish bitcoin was around during my master's thesis. I instead wrote on CEO compensation and currency manipulation
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  #1289  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:24
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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My position is that it meets 2 of those 3. But I'm willing to be convinced that it's widely accepted but I just don't see it
I agree.

It is the universal part that I'm skeptical of.


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I wish bitcoin was around during my master's thesis. I instead wrote on CEO compensation and currency manipulation

CEO compensation is all about manipulation, inflation and lack of accountability.

But I love capitalism!
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  #1290  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:26
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Originally Posted by Paul85 View Post
I'd be very grateful if someone, anyone, could shed light on this.
My question is aimed at people here who have traded and worked with cryptos and who have solid knowledge about them. Thank you in advance for any help.

I think, honestly, that you just have to spend a few bucks and buy in. Play around with it. I've owned a few coins of various and sundry kinds here and there. Even had 30-ish BTC back in the day, but I sadly sold it off before the price blew up. I still made profit, which makes it, in my opinion, a 'good investment.'

Disclaimer: I don't have a PhD in anything. I might have done something with a computer once, and I have at least a kindergarten level working knowledge of cryptography. My definition of 'good investment' is
Quote:
that which creates a profit for me.
If you're really want to learn about the stuff at a technical level, I recommend you grab a copy of bitcoin for the befuddled. Read and understand the basics found in that book, then Google 'Bitcoin mining the hard way.' I'll very simply say that it goes far beyond the basics.

If you're (very) tech-savvy, you can even download something like BRT and start playing around with your own blockchain stuff.

That's all a little off-topic, though. My recommendation: buy something cheap to play around with. I haven't looked into what any of them are valued at right now, but Monero was cheap last I looked, and is fairly popular. I might buy some.
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  #1291  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:28
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the last factor is that it serves as a storage of wealth.
Doesn't seem to me that USD fits that bit, given inflation and whatnot. It's not 'storage' if you hemorrhage 1-3% of your wealth yearly.
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  #1292  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:29
Paul85 Paul85 is offline
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Thank you very much for this info, BOFH.
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  #1293  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:54
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Originally Posted by BOFH View Post
Doesn't seem to me that USD fits that bit, given inflation and whatnot. It's not 'storage' if you hemorrhage 1-3% of your wealth yearly.
Technically if you look at the data your figure is not totally accurate. It's understandable because most people feel this way. It's also not everything it seems to be and I'll explain:

The average wage increase across the US from 2017 to 2018 was 2.8%. The average workweek increase was .6% giving us a total increase of 3.4%. Inflation (measured by Consumer Price Index) rose 2.3%. The net effect is that we increased by 1.1% from last year. So our wealth actually increased.

Now how this is misleading is factors such as healthcare which can be left out of formulas which may increase. It rose 5% in 2018. But the numbers I quoted earlier using CPI actually has 2 components of healthcare included.
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  #1294  
Old 19 October 2018, 09:57
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Originally Posted by 8654maine View Post
I agree.

It is the universal part that I'm skeptical of.





CEO compensation is all about manipulation, inflation and lack of accountability.

But I love capitalism!
Yes CEO compensation is sort of about manipulation but mostly it's manipulation of stock price and other workers compensation. But the most blatant example of currency manipulation comes from our Federal Reserve. The entire purpose of the Federal Open Market Committee is to manipulate interest rates which in turn manipulates the money supply. It either tightens it or loosens it.
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  #1295  
Old 19 October 2018, 10:00
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I can get extra nerdy along with BOFH if that is helpful. The speculative value of BTC is that people have assigned value to it and are trading it. Not unlike the Dollar, as long as people have assigned value (faith) to the Dollar, it will continue to be traded and have value. That value, however, is easily manipulated, but I won't step on my soapbox yet.

The other aspect is its intrinsic value. If I send $100 in BTC overseas to Italy, the value received is $100 BTC. No one is taking a cut of the remittance. This is causing butthurt in banks and nations, as they can't (easily) tax or regulate it.

...and my favorite: security. This currency is cryptographically secure. When you hear about the hacks that go on, it's against the exchanges themselves, or the applications. It is not against the currency.

It also now has a decade of providence. It hasn't faltered. The same fault tolerance from 2010 is the same as today, and so on. You really can't bring it to its knees, by design. Again, this is different than exchange-specific, or application-based attacks. Different animals. A good analogy is if someone robs a bank, it's the banks fault, not the currency.
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  #1296  
Old 19 October 2018, 10:04
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CV if I may, that is another problem I have overall. Dubious exchanges who set up shop, take in maybe millions of BTC and then suddenly they shut down running away with a portion of coin. I can't remember the exact numbers but I want to say it's happened at least twice. The deregulatory nature of BTC brings out a criminal element that will try to take advantage of people and steal their money. That's scary to people like me. It seems the safest course of exchange is (and help me if I'm using the wrong terminology) wallet to wallet?
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  #1297  
Old 19 October 2018, 10:05
8654maine 8654maine is offline
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I think you've hit one of the fundamental attraction of cryptocurrency: inability of the Fed to manipulate it, in the classic sense.

However, it can be manipulated.
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  #1298  
Old 19 October 2018, 10:11
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Originally Posted by 8654maine View Post
I think you've hit one of the fundamental attraction of cryptocurrency: inability of the Fed to manipulate it, in the classic sense.

However, it can be manipulated.
Yes, true, but as an economics guy I also see value in manipulation. Had the treasury secretary in 1929 (Andrew Mellon) actually done something we could have possibly avoided the great depression. Instead he said "We will stand by and let the markets work themselves out". That left us with 10 years of debilitating depression that was really only undone by having a war.

What I don't agree with is manipulation for personal wealth which is what we see far too often.
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  #1299  
Old 19 October 2018, 10:29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Broker View Post
Technically if you look at the data your figure is not totally accurate. It's understandable because most people feel this way. It's also not everything it seems to be and I'll explain:

The average wage increase across the US from 2017 to 2018 was 2.8%. The average workweek increase was .6% giving us a total increase of 3.4%. Inflation (measured by Consumer Price Index) rose 2.3%. The net effect is that we increased by 1.1% from last year. So our wealth actually increased.

Now how this is misleading is factors such as healthcare which can be left out of formulas which may increase. It rose 5% in 2018. But the numbers I quoted earlier using CPI actually has 2 components of healthcare included.
I want to argue, not because I necessarily think you're wrong, but because I'd like to better understand if my own reasoning is off. That said, in the interest of keeping the thread somewhat on-topic, do you mind if I PM you for further discussion on this?
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  #1300  
Old 19 October 2018, 10:31
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I want to argue, not because I necessarily think you're wrong, but because I'd like to better understand if my own reasoning is off. That said, in the interest of keeping the thread somewhat on-topic, do you mind if I PM you for further discussion on this?
Sure. My only purpose here is to educate and learn. And apparently I've come off looking like a dick and that wasn't my intention at all. So for any who are upset I apologize. Especially FUBAR who seems really upset. My apologies.
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