SOCNET

Go Back   SOCNET: The Special Operations Community Network > U.S. Army Special Operations > Special Forces

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 16 November 2018, 15:14
CDRODA396's Avatar
CDRODA396 CDRODA396 is offline
BTDT
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Raeford, North Pineland
Posts: 2,529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin Blank View Post
xxxxxx

Just an FYI, there is a memo going around, often with this article, that has SERE listed as optional, SFAS as 11 days, Sage as like a week, etc. It is a fake memo, and a bunch of FOGs are using it to get all worked up.
That memo is fake. SERE is staying, June, not January is implementation, basically everything listed at the bottom of that memo is wrong.
__________________
"You cant walk on water if you dont get out of the boat," the Infamous Mike Brown

"The best place to find a helping hand is at the end of your own arm." CR
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 17 November 2018, 06:19
leopardprey's Avatar
leopardprey leopardprey is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,180
I am so glad I was an 18C. ; ).
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Look Sharp, Act Sharp, Be Sharp - But don't cut yourself!"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 17 November 2018, 09:24
Godzilla's Avatar
Godzilla Godzilla is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In a Laboratory
Posts: 1,721
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
We did phase 13. Mos phase first, the phase 1 and phase 3 combined at the end, hence the nickname given at the time "phase 13". Back in '91/'92.
Yup...we must have crossed paths at some point back then. I was in the 18B track, started March or maybe April '91.
__________________
Here's to nipples...without them, titties would be pointless

A problem shared is a problem ridiculed
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 17 November 2018, 15:59
leopardprey's Avatar
leopardprey leopardprey is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,180
Were you an 18X? Came back in as an 18X in April. Back then to be an 18x you had to be prior service. Did pre-Sfas, guard/role player at SERE, SFAS, 18th Airborne Corps PLDC, then two months doing radio watch at Camp McKall, then started the 18C late August IIRC. We did phase 13 Jan/Feb '92. Then Thai language school after that for 6 months.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Look Sharp, Act Sharp, Be Sharp - But don't cut yourself!"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by leopardprey; 17 November 2018 at 16:06.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 17 November 2018, 19:00
Godzilla's Avatar
Godzilla Godzilla is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In a Laboratory
Posts: 1,721
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
Were you an 18X? Came back in as an 18X in April. Back then to be an 18x you had to be prior service. Did pre-Sfas, guard/role player at SERE, SFAS, 18th Airborne Corps PLDC, then two months doing radio watch at Camp McKall, then started the 18C late August IIRC. We did phase 13 Jan/Feb '92. Then Thai language school after that for 6 months.
No, I was active duty and went into SF after being an 11B. We had some REP 63's in the class, I don't recall any 18X's.
__________________
Here's to nipples...without them, titties would be pointless

A problem shared is a problem ridiculed
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 19 November 2018, 15:06
Sharky's Avatar
Sharky Sharky is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: SOCNET
Posts: 19,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by leopardprey View Post
Were you an 18X? Came back in as an 18X in April. Back then to be an 18x you had to be prior service. Did pre-Sfas, guard/role player at SERE, SFAS, 18th Airborne Corps PLDC, then two months doing radio watch at Camp McKall, then started the 18C late August IIRC. We did phase 13 Jan/Feb '92. Then Thai language school after that for 6 months.

There was an 18X program in the early 90's?

I was under the impression that other than the original SF Baby program in the early 80's, that the 18X program didn't exist until after 9/11. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post.
__________________
I was born my papa's son
When I hit the ground I was on the run
I had one glad hand and the other behind
You can have yours, just give me mine
When the hound dog barkin' in the black of the night
Stick my hand in my pocket, everything's all right

-ZZ Top
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 19 November 2018, 16:11
gavin's Avatar
gavin gavin is offline
Unemployed Stunt Double
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: On a plane...
Posts: 7,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
There was an 18X program in the early 90's?

I was under the impression that other than the original SF Baby program in the early 80's, that the 18X program didn't exist until after 9/11. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post.
There were two "18X-like" programs at that time. REP63, for Guard folks, allowed enlisting straight into SF (but only for Guard, not AD), and the 18X AD enlistment option, only for certain prior-service enlistees.
__________________
Life’s barely long enough to get good at one thing. So be careful what you get good at.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 19 November 2018, 16:19
AKAPete AKAPete is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 1,564
In 1974 it was just The Special Forces Enlistment Option.

Fail anywhere along the way and it was off to the good of the Army. No second chance.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 19 November 2018, 16:35
Sharky's Avatar
Sharky Sharky is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: SOCNET
Posts: 19,747
Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
There were two "18X-like" programs at that time. REP63, for Guard folks, allowed enlisting straight into SF (but only for Guard, not AD), and the 18X AD enlistment option, only for certain prior-service enlistees.

Roger. I remember the REP-63 thing, and something called the Bear Program, but yeah I was thinking that was all Guard only.
__________________
I was born my papa's son
When I hit the ground I was on the run
I had one glad hand and the other behind
You can have yours, just give me mine
When the hound dog barkin' in the black of the night
Stick my hand in my pocket, everything's all right

-ZZ Top
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 19 November 2018, 17:04
Godzilla's Avatar
Godzilla Godzilla is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: In a Laboratory
Posts: 1,721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
Roger. I remember the REP-63 thing, and something called the Bear Program, but yeah I was thinking that was all Guard only.
BEAR was available for AD, I fell in on that.
__________________
Here's to nipples...without them, titties would be pointless

A problem shared is a problem ridiculed
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 19 November 2018, 18:27
gavin's Avatar
gavin gavin is offline
Unemployed Stunt Double
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: On a plane...
Posts: 7,059
I would have fallen in on the BEAR IOT meet remaining TIS reqs to attend the SFQC...but my Reenlistment NCO at JBLM didn't know it existed, so I just plain re-enlisted (no bonus) outside my window to meet TIS reqs to attend the Q.

BEAR (Bonus Extension and Retraining) was a reenlistment option, not an enlistment option. Allowed folks who were serving in a career field without a bonus to do a combination extension/reenlistment into a field that did have a bonus. There weren't a whole lot of fields with bonuses back in the mid-90s. Ah, the Good Old Days of the 90s drawdown...
__________________
Life’s barely long enough to get good at one thing. So be careful what you get good at.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 20 November 2018, 08:02
HighDragLowSpeed's Avatar
HighDragLowSpeed HighDragLowSpeed is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Only Place For Me
Posts: 5,255
I was a REP63.

We had a bunch of BEAR bonus soldiers in my AIMC and Q classes. Most memorable was the guy that bought a black Porsche 944 with his BEAR bonus.
__________________
"I know of no country in which there is so little independence of mind and real freedom of discussion as in America." - de Tocqueville, 19th century

God made machine language; all the rest is the work of man.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 20 November 2018, 10:07
leopardprey's Avatar
leopardprey leopardprey is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,180
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
There was an 18X program in the early 90's?

I was under the impression that other than the original SF Baby program in the early 80's, that the 18X program didn't exist until after 9/11. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post.
Yes, as Gavin pointed out. The 18X program was only availiable to prior service personnel, who qualified to come back in as an E-4. I had been an E-5 with just under two years break in service. Had to come back in as an E-4. Got my E-5 back the day I graduated from the Q Course. Not sure how long they ran this program, but was availiable in 1991. At the time ODAs from 19th Group Utah were running a two week pre- SFAS program for us out at the old Recondo site on Bragg. Out of our initial group of 50 or so 18x I think like only 10 of us made it all through the program.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Look Sharp, Act Sharp, Be Sharp - But don't cut yourself!"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 20 November 2018, 23:39
Fu King Lawyer Fu King Lawyer is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: ...
Posts: 1,281
A dear friend who turned me on to SOCNET years ago - posted here once upon a time. He hasn't been around here for years. He is a SOG Vet.
For the record he was baby SF many years before the times mentioned, above. Some will know him. cc// came directly in, went basic, airborne and then to the Q, before he went off to RVN. Subsequently his entire career was SF. Often he said he was part of the original baby SF.
Many here knew him - as the special projects go to, asst DCSOPs and finally the DCSOPs at USASFC(A).
There is a lot of history out there. v/r fkl
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 21 November 2018, 01:38
Astronomy Astronomy is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 190
The 18X Program was alive and well in 1991. I think it was formally launched just that year.

I came back to AD SF on that one. 90% of the 18X Recruiting Reg applied to Prior Service volunteers for SFAS & SFQC.

The last few paragraphs dealt with folks already SF qualified (within a certain currency span of years). I was already SF qualified with a previous AD tour at 1-10. Had gotten out as a SSG and joined 11th. At the time I came back on Active Duty, already SF qualified were accessioned directly to pinpoint AD SF assignment. This being orders for whatever Group their local Army Recruiter arranged (and the volunteer asked for). No stop at the Ft Bragg slave market. From civy street to standing formation at Panzer Kaserne in a little over a month. Came back in as an E7. No loss of rank.

Formally reenlisted under the 18X option, then spent a few days on TDY Enroute orders at Ft Jackson Replacement Center. This to in-process back into the Army (with a vast mob of Basic Trainees doing Initial Entry) and get handed new uniform issue. Then returned home to wait for movers to arrive a couple of weeks later for typical PCS loadout. Then grabbed family and flew to Germany to re-join 1-10. Orders in hand assigning me to a specifically requested company and sponsor waiting for us at Stuttgart airport.

Several folks I knew from 11th did the same thing before that Group was stood down. Several of them joined me at 1-10th, serving in my company and even on my ODA.

The 18X, SF Baby, Lodge Bill, or Direct Accession to Vietnam Era SF things have been done since the beginning... back in the '50s. I worked alongside plenty of each over the years.

I saw Katie What's-her-name when I was going through the 18B Course some years earlier (1980 to be exact). She was in between her attempted Q-Courses, killing time. Naturally, somebody up high gave her a highly coveted slot to XVIII Airborne Sniper School to keep her occupied. We watched her sniper class form up every day while we labored across the street working mortars in the hot sun. Our SFQC cadre were... how shall I say...not amused to see her. They pointed her out to us along with pithy commentary.

There was a famous SF underground t-shirt available back at that time. One that depicted her (wearing a beret) with a mil-dot reticle centered on her face. Wish I'd had the presence of mind to snag one of those collector items. Printed words on the t-shirt to the effect of: "I'm Rough and I'm Tough... and if You don't Believe Me... I'll Sue You Too".

I posted the following in another (similar) thread about females in Ranger units awhile back. It encapsulates my personal reasoning for why females assigned to operational (ODA/ODB) assignment are a bad idea. It's not the usual argument (female ability to physically/mentally hang tough). Something entirely different...

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
(Female Navy OP):
I'll return to my initial question, asked respectfully of people who do/have done duties that I have not done and don't claim full understanding of (so I'm asking) what specifically about a military member being female makes them inherently incapable of being a Ranger? If the physical standards are actually equal.
There are two politically incorrect contraindications for females serving in all-male military arenas like Infantry & SOF. Current leaders are unwilling to address these realities due to career ending repercussions.
(Astronomy:)

Those reasons are:

1. At the pointy end of the spear, individual ground combat is about winning. There is no award for Second Place.

That requires defeating, destroying, and killing opponents. At least 7000 recorded years of military history has yet to show any society or culture that triumphed on the battle field because they favored gender equality over results.

For the same reasons that professional sports leagues do not employ mixed gender teams. For the same reasons that Olympic sports are divided into male and female categories. The cost of failure is too great. And that's just talking billions in purely monetary profits for merely recreational spectacles.

Quite simply, a mixed gender infantry force will perform at a lesser level than it's all-male opponent. Nobody wants to say it. But every male intuitively understands it.

2. Effective Infantry formations require bonded tribal bands of males because such closed societies deliver a biological feedback loop that encourages loyalty, group sacrifice, and enhanced aggression. Useful if you want your guys to collectively go stick bayonets into somebody.

Young males form these groups naturally, from the time they are little boys until they reach service age. Their natural competitiveness and biological drive to search for mates can be temporarily suborned in favor of all-male bachelor societies. These bands provide mutual psychological support and an outlet for otherwise unconstrained testosterone. This process also occurs naturally among several species of social mammals. It's part of the natural establishment of gender role models and dominance hierarchies. Boys learn their hunter-gatherer-protector roles from their male cohorts, while females learn their child rearing-nurturing roles from their female elders.

In the extreme, Men are natural cannon fodder and Females are natural child bearers. There's a logical overlap in responsibilities, which is why humans form family groups, but at the core of things, males resent female intrusion into firmly delineated gender roles... the ones we are hard-wired for by Mother Nature.

Insertion of females into traditionally all male "warrior tribes" throws serious psychological and hormonal wrenches into an otherwise functional structure. The inevitable he-she problems of sex, mating, and protector roles sow confusion and inefficiencies into (de facto when deployed) bachelor male war bands. The close-in, 24/7 inclusion of females results in dissent, tension, leadership failures, distrust between bonded males, and the emergence of out and out competition for the females at hand. It's fucking biology. Natural as the rain falling from the sky.

Meanwhile, the other side... those guys who insist on sticking with a tried and true misogynist formula? The ones who fill their platoons with nothing but males? They win.

Sounds like a sexist response to your query, doesn't it? Guess what? It is. It has to be. Lives hang in the balance.
The above is my completely unscientific theory about why women on teams are a bad idea. It's just a gut observation about a truth that few leaders are even willing to entertain. But it's one I spent about 35 years in Army SOF developing. And I didn't really even delve into the whole dynamic of dependent team wives. Something that adds even more static to the equation.

It's a dumb idea, not because certain women can't do the job, but because they screw up otherwise bonded men from doing theirs. The juice ain't worth the squeeze. Just because you can... doesn't mean that you should.
__________________
The moral high ground is sometimes just a head on a long pike...

Last edited by Astronomy; 21 November 2018 at 01:50.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 21 November 2018, 04:27
leopardprey's Avatar
leopardprey leopardprey is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 12,180
Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Astronomy View Post
The 18X Program was alive and well in 1991. I think it was formally launched just that year.

I came back to AD SF on that one. 90% of the 18X Recruiting Reg applied to Prior Service volunteers for SFAS & SFQC.

The last few paragraphs dealt with folks already SF qualified (within a certain currency span of years). I was already SF qualified with a previous AD tour at 1-10. Had gotten out as a SSG and joined 11th. At the time I came back on Active Duty, already SF qualified were accessioned directly to pinpoint AD SF assignment. This being orders for whatever Group their local Army Recruiter arranged (and the volunteer asked for). No stop at the Ft Bragg slave market. From civy street to standing formation at Panzer Kaserne in a little over a month. Came back in as an E7. No loss of rank.

Formally reenlisted under the 18X option, then spent a few days on TDY Enroute orders at Ft Jackson Replacement Center. This to in-process back into the Army (with a vast mob of Basic Trainees doing Initial Entry) and get handed new uniform issue. Then returned home to wait for movers to arrive a couple of weeks later for typical PCS loadout. Then grabbed family and flew to Germany to re-join 1-10. Orders in hand assigning me to a specifically requested company and sponsor waiting for us at Stuttgart airport.

Several folks I knew from 11th did the same thing before that Group was stood down. Several of them joined me at 1-10th, serving in my company and even on my ODA.

The 18X, SF Baby, Lodge Bill, or Direct Accession to Vietnam Era SF things have been done since the beginning... back in the '50s. I worked alongside plenty of each over the years.

I saw Katie What's-her-name when I was going through the 18B Course some years earlier (1980 to be exact). She was in between her attempted Q-Courses, killing time. Naturally, somebody up high gave her a highly coveted slot to XVIII Airborne Sniper School to keep her occupied. We watched her sniper class form up every day while we labored across the street working mortars in the hot sun. Our SFQC cadre were... how shall I say...not amused to see her. They pointed her out to us along with pithy commentary.

There was a famous SF underground t-shirt available back at that time. One that depicted her (wearing a beret) with a mil-dot reticle centered on her face. Wish I'd had the presence of mind to snag one of those collector items. Printed words on the t-shirt to the effect of: "I'm Rough and I'm Tough... and if You don't Believe Me... I'll Sue You Too".

I posted the following in another (similar) thread about females in Ranger units awhile back. It encapsulates my personal reasoning for why females assigned to operational (ODA/ODB) assignment are a bad idea. It's not the usual argument (female ability to physically/mentally hang tough). Something entirely different...



The above is my completely unscientific theory about why women on teams are a bad idea. It's just a gut observation about a truth that few leaders are even willing to entertain. But it's one I spent about 35 years in Army SOF developing. And I didn't really even delve into the whole dynamic of dependent team wives. Something that adds even more static to the equation.

It's a dumb idea, not because certain women can't do the job, but because they screw up otherwise bonded men from doing theirs. The juice ain't worth the squeeze. Just because you can... doesn't mean that you should.
Well said - on target.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
"Look Sharp, Act Sharp, Be Sharp - But don't cut yourself!"
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 21 November 2018, 13:27
Astronomy Astronomy is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: USA
Posts: 190
Damn cut and paste mistake plus edit time out...

I inadvertently left the first sentence of my quoted reply (to the Female Navy OP) connected to her query paragraph. The quoted text in my above post should have looked like this:

(Astronomy:)
There are two politically incorrect contraindications for females serving in all-male military arenas like Infantry & SOF. Current leaders are unwilling to address these realities due to career ending repercussions.

Those reasons are...
__________________
The moral high ground is sometimes just a head on a long pike...

Last edited by Astronomy; 21 November 2018 at 13:33.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 21 November 2018, 14:41
gavin's Avatar
gavin gavin is offline
Unemployed Stunt Double
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: On a plane...
Posts: 7,059
The Overton Window has moved pretty far past the "women in ground combat/SOF roles" discussion within the corridors of power. That egg ain't getting unscrambled.
__________________
Life’s barely long enough to get good at one thing. So be careful what you get good at.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 21 November 2018, 14:41
AKAPete AKAPete is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 1,564
What was her reply?
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 21 November 2018, 14:46
AKAPete AKAPete is offline
Been There Done That
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fayetteville, NC
Posts: 1,564
Quote:
Originally Posted by gavin View Post
The Overton Window has moved pretty far past the "women in ground combat/SOF roles" discussion within the corridors of power. That egg ain't getting unscrambled.
And as I've said for a long time - none of them will be on an A Team for any length of time. A "safe" A Team with maybe a warm and fuzzy deployment to a friendly country then quickly moved to the SWC area there to proudly wander around wearing the beret, return to a battalion assignment then off to a SOC somewhere.

Oh, they will be Green Berets - just GBs with less than two years A Team time.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Our new posting rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 00:46.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Socnet.com All Rights Reserved
© SOCNET 1996-2018