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  #41  
Old 2 September 2003, 14:20
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amato
http://book.surpriced.com/0385336039.html


either way, i liked the book, it was really good.
Botom line, he violated "the code":

I have served with a great many, whose personal honor would not have allowed them to violate "the code":

The book should not have been written, PERIOD:

Terry
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  #42  
Old 2 September 2003, 14:33
Amato Amato is offline
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i know, but it was still a good read

so what if he didn't get permission by DOD? what could happen?
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  #43  
Old 2 September 2003, 14:50
yotanka yotanka is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amato
so what if he didn't get permission by DOD? what could happen?
As I said before, someone was dropped from the unit rolls.

Jennifer Martinez sends
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  #44  
Old 2 September 2003, 14:55
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amato


so what if he didn't get permission by DOD? what could happen?
Amato:

Who the fuck are you?

What happens, is that he loses the respect of his fellow operators:

Respect, trust, honor among operators:

He threw that away:

Terry
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  #45  
Old 2 September 2003, 15:29
Amato Amato is offline
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Quote:
Who the fuck are you?
who the fuck am i? someone who asked a simple question! jesus! i simply asked what would happen....
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  #46  
Old 2 September 2003, 15:35
Doogie320 Doogie320 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amato
[hmm i don't ever remember haney hinting to that, but then again, its been a while since i read it. a few months, basically a week after it came out. either way, i liked the book, it was really good.
Re: Kiki Saenz: Haney didn't hint to it, he flat out said it in his book.

Quote:
Originally posted by CPTAUSRET
Amato:

Who the fuck are you?

What happens, is that he loses the respect of his fellow operators:

Respect, trust, honor among operators:

He threw that away:

Terry
I liked the book, however recent comments about it (from a group of people that I trust) have caused me to look at it with a very jaded eye.

I think that it was Teutates that made a comment about another infamous SF vet, something to the effect of not helping the guy if he were in trouble. Given the brotherhood that exists in SF, that is a very strong statement. Haney was dropped from the unit rolls. That says something....

Amato, here's a hint for you: Learn how to capitalize and spell. You can spend a lifetime changing someone's perception of you and the written word still carries weight in some circles.

BTAR
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  #47  
Old 2 September 2003, 15:42
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amato
who the fuck am i? someone who asked a simple question! jesus! i simply asked what would happen....
Be aware of where you are:

This is SOCNET, this place is about and for, the real deal BTDT:

It is all about honor and integrity, and upholding "the code":

If you do not care for my response to you, I suggest that you "get over it":

That's about as polite as it's going to get around here:

Terry
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  #48  
Old 2 September 2003, 15:45
Amato Amato is offline
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How about a reason? You jumped on me like I some how insulted you by asking a question.
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  #49  
Old 2 September 2003, 16:07
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amato
How about a reason? You jumped on me like I some how insulted you by asking a question.
Amato:

I hope you are not questioning me:

Bad way to get your feet wet here:

If you are, regroup and reread my posts:

Think twice before responding:

Terry
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  #50  
Old 2 September 2003, 16:12
Doogie320 Doogie320 is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amato
How about a reason? You jumped on me like I some how insulted you by asking a question.
To answer your original question:

Prosecution.

So what? OPSEC, PERSEC, trivial stuff like that. He signed a non-disclosure agreement, which he later violated.

BTAR
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  #51  
Old 2 September 2003, 16:16
yotanka yotanka is offline
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It was, I think, the way you asked the question(s), Amato. Perhaps you meant nothing by it, but the way that post came across.....

A post I made on another thread is now relevant here:

I'm going to copy, paste something from an email I received from an Operator who served with the CSM. The problem with this is that you have no way to verify, but since I cannot disclose names, email addresses, etc, this is the best I can do. - Jennifer Martinez sends
--
Eric was a darn good operator, and from everything I saw a good Soldier. Sadly, I think he forgot his values somewhere along the line. This doesn't diminish what he did in uniform, but does permanently damage his reputation now that he's retired. I read his book since a friend gave it to me and wanted my opinion, which is: he violated several confidences, if not outright classified guidance, which is plain wrong. He told a good, entertaining story, and gave good insights into the assessment, selection, and training process (much of which he shouldn't have), but then devolved into fiction. I can't recommend the book because I disagree with Eric's new values, but if you want a fairly accurate depiction of selection it's a good read.
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  #52  
Old 2 September 2003, 16:17
Anakin Anakin is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amato
i know, but it was still a good read

so what if he didn't get permission by DOD? what could happen?
Members of the British SAS are banned from the Regimental HQ once they write books. They become outcasts and lose the respect of their fellow comrades. I guess it's the same in pretty much all SOF.
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  #53  
Old 2 September 2003, 16:30
Sneaky SF Dude Sneaky SF Dude is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amato
How about a reason? You jumped on me like I some how insulted you by asking a question.
This, junior, is your problem "so what if he didn't get permission by DOD?" So what is he gave his word. Things he wrote could, just could, jepordize people on future ops. And don't back talk your betters or your elders. Cap was skids in the grass before you were born. You "liked the book" well good, he wrote it for people like you to enjoy. Go and enjoy it again if you want. But don't argue about it with people that lived it. They KNOW, you opine, there's a difference. Get some respect or get out.
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  #54  
Old 3 September 2003, 09:24
Sapper12B Sapper12B is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amato
i know, but it was still a good read

so what if he didn't get permission by DOD? what could happen?
It's called a "Non-Disclosure Agreement", or "NDA". But above and beyond that, like Sneaky SF Dude and the CPT said, loss of respect in the community. That respect is hard to earn and impossible to regain once violated. I noticed your profile says "leaving for the Army". Good luck.
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  #55  
Old 3 September 2003, 12:24
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Terry Welshan Terry Welshan is offline
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our lives are not fodder for the reader

I left 1st Battalion shortly after the U.S. concluded operation Eagle Claw and Honey Badger and was contacted repeatedly by a reporter wishing to "write a book". Even though I had very little knowledge of events and was not a primary participant he assured me that he could spice it up and could find other sources. I finally told him that if he didnt leave me alone I would have to whip his ass and that no one with any knowledge of the events he was seeking would ever seek to make a profit from them by writing a book. A few months later he called me one last time.... to ask me if I had read Col. Beckwiths book.

Terry Welshan
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  #56  
Old 3 September 2003, 13:01
Amato Amato is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sapper12B
It's called a "Non-Disclosure Agreement", or "NDA". But above and beyond that, like Sneaky SF Dude and the CPT said, loss of respect in the community. That respect is hard to earn and impossible to regain once violated. I noticed your profile says "leaving for the Army". Good luck.
Thats what I was asking, sort of. What would the DoD do though? Would they take legal action, take away his benefits(if he was retired), or something else?

Yeah, I'm leaving soon for the Army, end of next month, thank you. Very nervous I must say.

What about Charlie Beckwith, did his book break "the code" and did it cause him to lose respect of the SOF community, or was his not to informative to where to could cause problems for the rest of the community?
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  #57  
Old 3 September 2003, 13:56
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On another note:

Todays Early Bird had a story that essentially confirmed the Honduras Operation. I can post the story if anyone is interested.
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  #58  
Old 3 September 2003, 15:24
Sapper12B Sapper12B is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Amato
Thats what I was asking, sort of. What would the DoD do though? Would they take legal action, take away his benefits(if he was retired), or something else?

Yeah, I'm leaving soon for the Army, end of next month, thank you. Very nervous I must say.

What about Charlie Beckwith, did his book break "the code" and did it cause him to lose respect of the SOF community, or was his not to informative to where to could cause problems for the rest of the community?
Self destruction is the worst possible punishment. Any action taken by the Federal Government would be secondary. Read that as, it wouldn't matter...

COL Beckwith created the code, with regard to SFOD, I believe he could do damn well what he pleased.

Sneaky, you are twisted...
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  #59  
Old 3 September 2003, 15:36
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By popular demand:

Ex-Green Beret's Sandinista Story Emerges 20 Years Later

Miami Herald

September 3, 2003

Ex-Green Beret's Sandinista Story Emerges 20 Years Later

Former Green Beret yearned to fight for Nicaraguan cause

By Juan O. Tamayo

Eric Haney says the killing in the Honduran jungle 20 years ago, when he was a member of Delta Force, the U.S. Army's premier commando group, shook him down to his combat boots.

During a firefight while on a secret mission to help Honduran army troops track down Cuban-trained leftist guerrillas, he shot to death a rebel who appeared to be a leader because he was using a radio, Haney says. But when he turned over the body of the rebel with the radio after the battle, Haney recognized him: It was David Arturo BŠez, a former U.S. Army Green Beret and, even more shockingly, Haney's roommate during tryouts for Delta Force four years earlier.

Haney says he's still not sure whether BŠez, a Nicaraguan-born U.S. citizen, had really joined Nicaragua's Marxist Sandinista rulers and later the Honduran guerrilla group after he left the Green Berets in 1981, or was an American spy sent to infiltrate the Sandinistas.

''I still can't believe it,'' said Haney, now retired from the U.S. military and an occasional Special Operations analyst on American TV networks.

The full tale of BŠez's bizarre mutation from Green Beret to guerrilla and death at Haney's hands in Honduras remained unknown until now, another of the many secret chapters of the wars that wracked much of Central America in the 1980s as
part of the Cold War. It was a time when Cuba and the Sandinistas were arming leftist guerrillas in Honduras and El Salvador, while the Reagan administration financed the
anti-Sandinista ''contra'' fighters as well as the Salvadoran and Honduran armed forces.

BŠez's once pro-Sandinista Nicaraguan family knew some of the details but kept silent for years. Haney knew other details but had sworn secrecy when he joined the elite Delta Force counterterrorism commandos in 1978.

BOOK PUBLISHED

But Haney retired in 1990 and in his autobiography, Inside Delta Force, published last year, he recounted his killing of the former bunk mate and Green Beret whom he identified as ``Keekee SŠenz.'' He confirmed that ''SŠenz'' was BŠez after The Herald identified BŠez independently, saying that he changed some details of the story in his book to sidestep his oath of secrecy and avoid possible retaliation from Sandinista sympathizers. Although he initially cooperated with this story, he later
stopped, saying its publication ``puts my life in jeopardy.''

ANTI-SOMOZA

BŠez was 3 years old when his father Adolfo, a former lieutenant in the Nicaraguan military, was arrested, tortured and executed after a 1954 coup attempt against U.S.-backed dictator Anastasio Somoza GarcŪa. ''David Arturo grew up with an obsession for our father. As kids we even used to play at assassinating Somoza,'' his younger brother Eduardo, now head of Books for Children, a nongovernment organization, told The Herald. By age 15, BŠez was already involved in anti-Somoza protests, so his mother
Lillian packed him off to finish high school in the United States, living first with an aunt in California and later with an older brother in New Jersey.

Always attracted to the military, the lean, square-shouldered BŠez signed up for the U.S. Army in the early '70s but left after two years, let his hair grow and joined a hippie commune in New Jersey. He later married an American, became a U.S. citizen and rejoined the Army in 1974, eventually earning the rank of
sergeant, joining the Green Berets and moving to Fort Gulick in the U.S.-controlled Panama Canal Zone.

But BŠez was a Nicaraguan through and through, Eduardo said, ''his apartments always filled with maracas,'' his politics always focused on the struggle against the Somoza family dictatorship by the leftist guerrillas of the Sandinista National Liberation Front.

As the Sandinistas gained ground in the late 1970s, a frustrated BŠez thought of deserting the Army to join them. But their victory in 1979 found him still in Panama, ''feeling guilty he was not in the fight,'' Eduardo said. 'From that time on he talked of nothing but returning to Nicaragua to join the revolution and help the Sandinistas' dream of building heaven in Nicaragua,'' the brother added.

JOINED SANDINISTAS

BŠez won an early release and arrived in Nicaragua in mid-1981 -- minus his wife, who thought it was too dangerous. He joined the Sandinista army as a captain, training elite commando units alongside Cuban advisors.'' I never saw him so happy,'' Eduardo recalled. ``He swallowed the whole revolution line, the anti-imperialism, the more humane army, the Cuban ideals. But he wanted to see combat.''

In mid-1982, BŠez was transferred to the Sandinista army's intelligence section and began disappearing for weeks and months at a time, added Eduardo, his roommate at the time.
It's now clear he was working with a group of Cuban-trained Honduran guerrillas, led by physician Jose MarŪa Reyes Mata, who were preparing to invade their neighboring homeland in an attempt to spark a revolution there.

BŠez told Eduardo in May 1983 that he had ''volunteered'' to undertake a secret mission in Honduras and would send him occasional letters using the code name Adolfo, his father's name. For the baby that his new Nicaraguan wife, Alma Ruth, was then expecting, he left a letter. ''One day my commander asked me if I wanted . . . to carry out an internationalist mission for the liberation of a brother country,'' BŠez wrote. ``I answered him as follows: You tell me where, when, how, and what.''

INTO HONDURAS

The baby, Carlos Javier, was 3 months old when BŠez, Reyes Mata and about 100 others slipped into Honduras on July 19, 1983. BŠez was not the only U.S. citizen in the rebel column. Its ''chaplain'' was the Rev. James Carney, a former Jesuit priest from St. Louis who had been expelled from Honduras for his
activism on behalf of poor farmers.

The column immediately ran into trouble. Food supplies ran out and 17 members deserted, alerting Honduran authorities. Haney said he was part of a Delta Force unit training the Honduran army's Special Forces on how to deal with airplane hijackings when news of the invasion came, and was one of two U.S. commandos sent to secretly help the trainees fight the rebels.

A former U.S. military officer in Honduras at the time has confirmed that U.S. advisors took part in the operation. Two media reports at the time also quoted Honduran troops as saying that a dozen U.S. soldiers were involved.

RUTHLESS TROOPS

The Honduran troops were effective but ruthless. Up to 40 rebels were captured, tortured and executed, according to a report by
CIA Inspector General Frederick P. Hitz on Honduran human-rights violations, written in 1997 and declassified the next year.
Haney told The Herald in telephone interviews from his home in Georgia that the last group of 30 to 40 guerrillas was surrounded and wiped out on a hilltop -- the same version Eduardo heard from a Sandinista army friend in 1997.

As the firefight started, Haney said, he spotted a rebel using a radio. ''Anytime you're in action you always seek the person with the radio. That's a leader, someone in command. So I put the [telescopic] scope of my M-16 on his neck and fired,'' he said.
After the battle, he added, the Hondurans finished off an nknown number of wounded guerrillas. ''If I was standing up in front of a crowd I would not say that they were killing the helpless, but it happened,'' he said.

DELTA FORCE

Haney said that he and two other Delta commandos later turned over the body and recognized BŠez, one of the 163 Green Berets and Army Rangers who had tried out for Delta Force in 1978 at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. Haney was one of the 12 who passed the ultra-rigorous physical and mental tests, going on to take part in the failed Iran hostage rescue attempt in 1980 and the U.S. invasions of Grenada and Panama.

BŠez did not make the cut and returned to the Green Berets in Panama, only to run into Haney again five years later in the jungles of eastern Honduras, this time on opposite sides of the Cold War's divide.

''I remembered him . . . as a quiet, competent type. A professional,'' Haney wrote in his book. ``Now he was gone for good. Dead. On a godforsaken, nondescript mountaintop, in a remote and utterly worthless part of the world. And I had killed him.''

CONTRADICTORY DATA

Hitz's CIA report, commissioned because of allegations that the CIA and U.S. Embassy in Tegucigalpa had failed to report on human-rights abuses by the Honduran military in the 1980s, offers contradictory reports on the fate of BŠez. Hitz mentions one U.S. intelligence report saying that a ''Nicaraguan advisor''
to the guerrillas had been killed in action, and two other reports that he had been captured and executed. The Hitz report, declassified at the request of the Carney family, also offers
contradictory information on the fate of the former Jesuit, variously reported to have starved to death or been captured, tortured and killed.

BŠez's and Carney's bodies have never been found.
After the battle, Haney said, he began suspecting BŠez had been a CIA agent sent to spy on the Sandinistas, and that CIA officials had blundered by failing to tell Haney that a former Green Beret was among the rebels. ''The whole operation just rang phony, because the whole thing was handled by the CIA,'' he said. ``You couldn't swing a dead cat by the tail without hitting
a CIA agent upside the head on this mission.''

Two former Delta Force members contacted by The Herald confirmed that Haney had been part of the group but could not vouch for the BŠez part of the story and criticized him for violating his oath of secrecy.

HIS LEGACY

BŠez's son, now a strapping 20-year-old with his father's narrow face and aquiline nose, blames his death on the Sandinistas, who were voted out of power in 1990 but remain a powerful political force in Nicaragua. ''I don't like them at all because Honduras had nothing to do with him. Honduras was nothing to him,'' he said. The son, a computer engineering student baptized as Carlos Javier, said he changed his name when he was about 5 years old. He's now David Arturo BŠez.
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  #60  
Old 3 September 2003, 15:45
Sneaky SF Dude Sneaky SF Dude is offline
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