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Old 30 March 2009, 17:00
GreenToBlue GreenToBlue is offline
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Training/ PL development--

In light of my last thread, I got a lot of feedback and suggestions about some things I should be focusing on as a future Officer. There was some good advice and I wanted to open up the discussion officially. I'm sure you guys will have some fun with this one.

Also, more short-term I will be acting as PSG for Cadet Field Training this summer at West Point. After some discussion with one of my professors here (18A with 5th group), we both agree the training here "sucks" and is completely incongruent with the fight in Iraq/Afghan. I.E. Too much emphasis on standard-doctrine, BRM, etc. etc. Without any real training devoted to "what to do when the shit hit's the fan" and things don't go according to plan.

So, I also want to open it up to any experiences and situations that are current and you would like to see officer's trained in. With that said, I have to work with some bounds-- so I am specifically looking for ways to better train soldiers in: Marksmanship, Urban Ops/MOUT, Patrolling, Land Nav and Fire Support.

I am going to try to mix in first-aide and cas-evac into that training. Using role-playing and if I get lucky some Moulage. I just want to see what training ideas are out there and how I can make the our training a little more realistic and practical for the current fight.

Thanks.

P.S-- for kicks-- Watcha gonna do PL?
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Old 30 March 2009, 18:10
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Sounds like you're trying to be an NCO, not an officer.

That said, one of things I emphasized prior to a deployment was vehicle/personnel searches and teamwork during same. Something you will surely face in the future. Find someone that has already BTDT and pick his brain; what went right, what went wrong, what would he change.

For the personnel searches, got o a local LE office, one that works in the city, ask if they will provide a block of instruction. For the vehicle searches, get with a border patrol, DEA, or Customs, they have their shit together when it comes to finding something hidden in a vehicle.

just my .02, you get what you pay for.
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  #3  
Old 30 March 2009, 19:24
Max Power Max Power is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenToBlue View Post
Also, more short-term I will be acting as PSG for Cadet Field Training this summer at West Point. After some discussion with one of my professors here (18A with 5th group), we both agree the training here "sucks" and is completely incongruent with the fight in Iraq/Afghan. I.E. Too much emphasis on standard-doctrine, BRM, etc. etc. Without any real training devoted to "what to do when the shit hit's the fan" and things don't go according to plan.

So, I also want to open it up to any experiences and situations that are current and you would like to see officer's trained in. With that said, I have to work with some bounds-- so I am specifically looking for ways to better train soldiers in: Marksmanship, Urban Ops/MOUT, Patrolling, Land Nav and Fire Support.

I am going to try to mix in first-aide and cas-evac into that training. Using role-playing and if I get lucky some Moulage. I just want to see what training ideas are out there and how I can make the our training a little more realistic and practical for the current fight.

Thanks.

P.S-- for kicks-- Watcha gonna do PL?
How much time do you have?

Get used to being upset about training, at least through BOLC II. But remember this, everyone has to start with the basics (and its good for some of us to revisit the basics every now and then). How can you expect people to operate effectively in a MOUT environment if they can't shoot worth a shit, move through the woods, etc. etc.

You're still at West Point. This isn't the time for you to be doing "cool stuff", its the time to form a strong solid foundation in the basics. Everything else you do will be built off of that. If you can't find the correlation between what you're doing now and what you'll be doing later, that might be the first place you want to work (i.e. figure out the correlation). And that includes the basics of how to train. Do your marksmanship training the way it's supposed to be done, so later on when your PSG explains to you why that way sucks, you'll be able to identify with it.
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Old 31 March 2009, 00:11
GreenToBlue GreenToBlue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace View Post
Sounds like you're trying to be an NCO, not an officer.

That said, one of things I emphasized prior to a deployment was vehicle/personnel searches and teamwork during same. Something you will surely face in the future. Find someone that has already BTDT and pick his brain; what went right, what went wrong, what would he change.

For the personnel searches, got o a local LE office, one that works in the city, ask if they will provide a block of instruction. For the vehicle searches, get with a border patrol, DEA, or Customs, they have their shit together when it comes to finding something hidden in a vehicle.

just my .02, you get what you pay for.
Just to clarify, my role this summer will be NCO oriented. I will be working as PSG for a platoon of underclass cadets. However, in the grand scheme everyone here, myself included, is training to be an Officer.

Thanks-- the personnel/vehicle searches is something I can definitely integrate into everyday field excercises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
How much time do you have?

Get used to being upset about training, at least through BOLC II. But remember this, everyone has to start with the basics (and its good for some of us to revisit the basics every now and then). How can you expect people to operate effectively in a MOUT environment if they can't shoot worth a shit, move through the woods, etc. etc.

You're still at West Point. This isn't the time for you to be doing "cool stuff", its the time to form a strong solid foundation in the basics. Everything else you do will be built off of that. If you can't find the correlation between what you're doing now and what you'll be doing later, that might be the first place you want to work (i.e. figure out the correlation). And that includes the basics of how to train. Do your marksmanship training the way it's supposed to be done, so later on when your PSG explains to you why that way sucks, you'll be able to identify with it.
Agreed, I'm not looking to reinvent the wheel yet-- just maximize and build of what is already established the best I can. There's no way I would be given the freedom to go do any "cool shit"-- but what I can do is work within my confines to develop a solid understanding of the basics and, like you said, the correlations-- and hopefully inspire my peers to continue learning on their own.

My goal is to avoid a "go through the motions" and "check the box" approach to training. I really want to get people to think actively about how their training will apply to an actual combat situation and the things that can go wrong that would cause them to deviate from the plan. For most of the cadets I will be teaching, this will be their first field excersise. If I can get them to walk away at least knowing and appreciating how much they do not know-- and with the tools and plan to go about learning them, then I will have done my job.
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Old 31 March 2009, 00:14
GreenToBlue GreenToBlue is offline
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How much time do you have?

3 weeks.
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Old 31 March 2009, 07:40
Max Power Max Power is offline
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Originally Posted by GreenToBlue View Post
My goal is to avoid a "go through the motions" and "check the box" approach to training. I really want to get people to think actively about how their training will apply to an actual combat situation and the things that can go wrong that would cause them to deviate from the plan. For most of the cadets I will be teaching, this will be their first field excersise. If I can get them to walk away at least knowing and appreciating how much they do not know-- and with the tools and plan to go about learning them, then I will have done my job.
In that case, my recommendation would be to run some STX lanes and brief them as though they'll be the same old things you always do (straight from 7-8). But when the time comes, tweak the scenario just enough so that it fits an established TTP, but you can't use it without modification.

One of the best things I ever heard was from a gentleman down at Ft. Polk during a briefing, "They shouls change the meaning of TTP from Tactic, Techniques, and Procedures to Tactics, Techniques, and Principles."

Think about it and see if you follow where that leads.
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Old 31 March 2009, 09:03
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Power View Post
One of the best things I ever heard was from a gentleman down at Ft. Polk during a briefing, "They shouls change the meaning of TTP from Tactic, Techniques, and Procedures to Tactics, Techniques, and Principles."


The order is out of whack, but yeah. The order is Principles, Tactics and Techniques.

More importantly though, when you take an action in training dont just learn the action. Learn WHY you take that action. Knowing WHY will sometimes tell you WHY NOT. Knowing WHY/WHY NOT may someday save your life.
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Old 31 March 2009, 10:11
Max Power Max Power is offline
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Originally Posted by Sharky View Post
The order is out of whack, but yeah. The order is Principles, Tactics and Techniques.

More importantly though, when you take an action in training dont just learn the action. Learn WHY you take that action. Knowing WHY will sometimes tell you WHY NOT. Knowing WHY/WHY NOT may someday save your life.
Why'd you have to take all the fun out of it? Trying to make him think about it and you went and gave him the answer

I'm sure they've rearranged it, that brief was back in 2006 during the LTP. The guy giving the briefing (wish I could remember his name) was basically just starting to push the idea. The BCT and below commanders and staff blew it off. But it definitely stuck with me as a young E-5 at the time (for exactly why you stated), go figure.

Glad to see it's gained some traction.
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Old 31 March 2009, 10:14
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CLEARED HOT CLEARED HOT is offline
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You're still at West Point. This isn't the time for you to be doing "cool stuff", its the time to form a strong solid foundation in the basics.
So true on so many levels. Any professional is a master of the basics, whether it be soldiering, baseball, or cooking. Many on the outside looking in seem to think that there is some secret formula to becoming really good at what they want to do, when in reality the answer is staring at them in the face.....the basics.
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