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  #61  
Old 16 January 2016, 12:16
offcamber offcamber is offline
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Brendan's "confession" was a joke and how the court didn't respond to that as it was is more evidence of foul play and collusion. The fact that in his own defense for an appeal they didn't consider that enough to give him one is just astounding. I was referring to the other nephew, Brendans older brother, who along with their stepdad testified against Avery and acted as each others alibi (they passed each other on the highway - even though their timeline was disputed by a bus driver)..

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Originally Posted by kosty View Post
The lack of blood evidence, except for what was on the "magic bullet" (which penetrates and exits the skull, but doesn't create ANY blood splatter) seemed to create much more than "a reasonable doubt". The finding of Avery's blood in the vehicle, but not a single Avery fingerprint in OR on the vehicle creates "a reasonable doubt" when considered in light of the blood vial with the needle hole. The way her car was "hidden" seemed very odd - it was more like it was "made to look" like it was hidden, but very easy to find. He could have crushed it. He could have burned it then crushed it. He could have made it difficult to find and observe.

The testimony of the nephew shouldn't have been admitted. He is a tool for whoever can guide the discussion, and with his first attorney's apparent collusion with the prosecution, his case should be thrown out. He was fed "the right answer" and "corrected" repeatedly until he said and wrote exactly what the prosecution needed. "Truth" was not allowed if it wasn't what the prosecution needed.
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  #62  
Old 16 January 2016, 13:12
Jong Jong is offline
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Originally Posted by kosty View Post
The lack of blood evidence, except for what was on the "magic bullet" (which penetrates and exits the skull, but doesn't create ANY blood splatter) seemed to create much more than "a reasonable doubt". The finding of Avery's blood in the vehicle, but not a single Avery fingerprint in OR on the vehicle creates "a reasonable doubt" when considered in light of the blood vial with the needle hole. The way her car was "hidden" seemed very odd - it was more like it was "made to look" like it was hidden, but very easy to find. He could have crushed it. He could have burned it then crushed it. He could have made it difficult to find and observe.
It is quite common to fill a vial with a needle. Not sure why that is controversial.
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  #63  
Old 17 January 2016, 01:31
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It is quite common to fill a vial with a needle. Not sure why that is controversial.
Did you see the documentary?
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  #64  
Old 17 January 2016, 07:04
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Did you see the documentary?
Nope, just been reading about some of the online postings about it.
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  #65  
Old 17 January 2016, 12:34
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You should watch it. It's enlightening.
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  #66  
Old 17 January 2016, 12:44
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Nope, just been reading about some of the online postings about it.
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You should watch it. It's enlightening.
Yup!
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  #67  
Old 17 January 2016, 12:59
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You should watch it. It's enlightening.
Enlightening about what? I already know the system is fucked. My wife is a social worker that works with local teenage girls that have been sex trafficked! You want to hear about some fucked up shit talk to my wife.
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  #68  
Old 17 January 2016, 13:02
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Enlightening about what? I already know the system is fucked. My wife is a social worker that works with local teenage girls that have been sex trafficked! You want to hear about some fucked up shit talk to my wife.
Well if you are going to make a comment about a key piece of evidence and dismiss it because you don't get the context, watching it would be enlightening.
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  #69  
Old 17 January 2016, 13:53
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Well if you are going to make a comment about a key piece of evidence and dismiss it because you don't get the context, watching it would be enlightening.
I see your point.
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  #70  
Old 17 January 2016, 14:58
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All I'm saying is PD bumble fucked up that investigation, and if even a single piece was evidence was planted then he deserves another trial with that introduced as evidence.
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  #71  
Old 18 January 2016, 09:04
IrishSoldier IrishSoldier is offline
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This thread brings up several interesting questions; Is there any evidence that the cops planted evidence? People talk as though there is a smoking gun that the cops planted evidence but I didn't see anything that led me to believe the cops planted evidence.

Should the cops question really stupid, weak willed people? I fully acknowledge there are people who will confess to anything. How should the cops question them? It seems like every questioning technique would either be ineffective or open to criticism.

Also if the body was burned why should there be anymore evidence then there was? If he raped the victim on a mattress maybe he just threw it into the fire and switched mattresses.

I'm not saying that cops haven't fixed cases and planted evidence in a case (O.J.) or that cops don't lie under oath, or in this case shade the truth regarding times and such, but it really still looks like Avery killed the woman and his nephew got a shitty defense and probably helped cover up the crime.
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  #72  
Old 18 January 2016, 09:17
kosty kosty is offline
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Originally Posted by IrishSoldier View Post
This thread brings up several interesting questions; Is there any evidence that the cops planted evidence? People talk as though there is a smoking gun that the cops planted evidence but I didn't see anything that led me to believe the cops planted evidence.
Did you watch the show?
The key wasn't there over the several days the room was searched prior to the Manitowoc deputies entering the room, and then it appeared the day they entered the room - like magic.
Quote:
Should the cops question really stupid, weak willed people? I fully acknowledge there are people who will confess to anything. How should the cops question them? It seems like every questioning technique would either be ineffective or open to criticism.
Did you watch the show?
They had to feed this easily manipulated young man the key secret evidence, and then used that testimony in court. That interrogation was conducted without counsel present. That should never have been allowed, and it should not have been admitted as evidence.
Quote:
Also if the body was burned why should there be anymore evidence then there was? If he raped the victim on a mattress maybe he just threw it into the fire and switched mattresses.
Yeah, the mattress could have been swapped. But there was no blood evidence in the trailer, or in the building where they found the bullet with DNA.
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  #73  
Old 18 January 2016, 09:30
IrishSoldier IrishSoldier is offline
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Did you watch the show?
The key wasn't there over the several days the room was searched prior to the Manitowoc deputies entering the room, and then it appeared the day they entered the room - like magic.

Yes, I did. The cops simply missed the key the first time. It happens all the time in searches, particularly with poorly trained or untrained personnel.

Did you watch the show?
They had to feed this easily manipulated young man the key secret evidence, and then used that testimony in court. That interrogation was conducted without counsel present. That should never have been allowed, and it should not have been admitted as evidence.


Right, while we all have a right to counsel the police do not enforce that right. It up to us to ask for counsel. Again this brings up the question, how are the police supposed to interrogate some one like the nephew? If you ask if he did it, he'll say yes, if you ask if martians did it he'll say yes. Isn't it up to the jury to determine if the interrogation is authentic? The jury saw the taped interview (all of it) and made conclusions. If you think a jury should be fully informed (I do) then they should have all the information and are free to see the same video and accept or reject it.

Yeah, the mattress could have been swapped. But there was no blood evidence in the trailer, or in the building where they found the bullet with DNA.


Also correct, but if Avery simply strong armed her then raped her on the mattress there would not be any other blood evidence. Some one did (after all) get rid of a 120 lb female human, why would a mattress or a tarp be out of the question?

DNA on the bullet and not elsewhere is simple to explain. Avery wrapped her head in a hood or a bed sheet to make her easier to handle and that absorbed all the blood. This is not uncommon in rape/kidnapping cases. Alternatively he simply cleaned up the evidence in this one area. Some people bleed all over the place when shot (arterial/venial bleeding), some people just die nearly instantly when the bullet is properly placed, the heart stops pumping blood and the blood fills a cavity like the lungs or brain. I'm willing to change my opinion, but right now this guy is as guilty as Mumia, or Leonard Pletier and all the one sided documentaries are going to change the evidence.
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  #74  
Old 18 January 2016, 09:30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSoldier View Post
This thread brings up several interesting questions; Is there any evidence that the cops planted evidence? People talk as though there is a smoking gun that the cops planted evidence but I didn't see anything that led me to believe the cops planted evidence.

Should the cops question really stupid, weak willed people? I fully acknowledge there are people who will confess to anything. How should the cops question them? It seems like every questioning technique would either be ineffective or open to criticism.

Also if the body was burned why should there be anymore evidence then there was? If he raped the victim on a mattress maybe he just threw it into the fire and switched mattresses.

I'm not saying that cops haven't fixed cases and planted evidence in a case (O.J.) or that cops don't lie under oath, or in this case shade the truth regarding times and such, but it really still looks like Avery killed the woman and his nephew got a shitty defense and probably helped cover up the crime.
While I admit he could of done it, from the evidence I see in the documentary, which was only showing one side I don't see how a jury convicted him. From what I seen there wasn't a smoking gun that the police planted evidence, but what can't be explained is why there was a needle hole in the tube of blood that was supposed to be sealed from his previous case.

I don't know if I would call the teen in this case stupid and weak willed, from what I seen it was leaning more to the side of mental illness. States should have a safe guard in place (in which after this documentary was released my neighboring state of TN is trying to pass legislation that stops police from questioning any teen with a mental illness without a parent or lawyer present) to stop this kind of questioning to protect those who don't have the coping skills to understand what they are being questioned about and the ramifications of the statements they are making.
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  #75  
Old 18 January 2016, 10:00
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IrishSoldier View Post
Did you watch the show?
The key wasn't there over the several days the room was searched prior to the Manitowoc deputies entering the room, and then it appeared the day they entered the room - like magic.

Yes, I did. The cops simply missed the key the first time. It happens all the time in searches, particularly with poorly trained or untrained personnel.

Did you watch the show?
They had to feed this easily manipulated young man the key secret evidence, and then used that testimony in court. That interrogation was conducted without counsel present. That should never have been allowed, and it should not have been admitted as evidence.


Right, while we all have a right to counsel the police do not enforce that right. It up to us to ask for counsel. Again this brings up the question, how are the police supposed to interrogate some one like the nephew? If you ask if he did it, he'll say yes, if you ask if martians did it he'll say yes. Isn't it up to the jury to determine if the interrogation is authentic? The jury saw the taped interview (all of it) and made conclusions. If you think a jury should be fully informed (I do) then they should have all the information and are free to see the same video and accept or reject it.

Yeah, the mattress could have been swapped. But there was no blood evidence in the trailer, or in the building where they found the bullet with DNA.


Also correct, but if Avery simply strong armed her then raped her on the mattress there would not be any other blood evidence. Some one did (after all) get rid of a 120 lb female human, why would a mattress or a tarp be out of the question?

DNA on the bullet and not elsewhere is simple to explain. Avery wrapped her head in a hood or a bed sheet to make her easier to handle and that absorbed all the blood. This is not uncommon in rape/kidnapping cases. Alternatively he simply cleaned up the evidence in this one area. Some people bleed all over the place when shot (arterial/venial bleeding), some people just die nearly instantly when the bullet is properly placed, the heart stops pumping blood and the blood fills a cavity like the lungs or brain. I'm willing to change my opinion, but right now this guy is as guilty as Mumia, or Leonard Pletier and all the one sided documentaries are going to change the evidence.
You are ascribing to him a level of criminal sophistication that is inconsistent throughout the crime. You are essentially saying he is CSfuckingI when it comes to cleaning up a violent crime scene, but when it comes to getting rid of her car, he drives it 100 feet away and covers it with sticks. And the guy owns acres of land with hundreds of cars...and a car crusher.
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  #76  
Old 18 January 2016, 10:09
IrishSoldier IrishSoldier is offline
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While I admit he could of done it, from the evidence I see in the documentary, which was only showing one side I don't see how a jury convicted him. From what I seen there wasn't a smoking gun that the police planted evidence, but what can't be explained is why there was a needle hole in the tube of blood that was supposed to be sealed from his previous case.

I'm not a blood worker, but from what I've been told they all have needle holes in them as part of the process of adding/removing blood. If this is not the case the defense team (Avery) would/should have made a lot more of it. As far as the smoking gun goes for the cops to frame him they would have had to fire the weapon, recover the bullet, dabb the victims blood on it and hope non of the other cops you are working with roll on you. Its a long stretch for me that cops would frame a suspect after they were under tremendous scrutiny for previously "framing" a suspect. Easier for the cops to let it go, blame the judicial system and then simply kill Avery in an arrest if they were going to go all out.

I don't know if I would call the teen in this case stupid and weak willed, from what I seen it was leaning more to the side of mental illness. States should have a safe guard in place (in which after this documentary was released my neighboring state of TN is trying to pass legislation that stops police from questioning any teen with a mental illness without a parent or lawyer present) to stop this kind of questioning to protect those who don't have the coping skills to understand what they are being questioned about and the ramifications of the statements they are making
.

As most of the people in prison for violent crimes have a history of abuse/mental illness/drug addiction the police would not be able to question most teen suspects most of the time. Also not in this case but in other cases really stupid, short sighted people with poor impulse control commit really horrific crimes.
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  #77  
Old 18 January 2016, 10:14
IrishSoldier IrishSoldier is offline
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You are ascribing to him a level of criminal sophistication that is inconsistent throughout the crime. You are essentially saying he is CSfuckingI when it comes to cleaning up a violent crime scene, but when it comes to getting rid of her car, he drives it 100 feet away and covers it with sticks. And the guy owns acres of land with hundreds of cars...and a car crusher.
Well then I'm being misunderstood. Im not saying he CSI'ed the entire junkyard, only that he did get rid of the body, phone etc and then left the car among 100's of other cars to be destroyed later. Thinking he added a mattress or a few bed sheets to a fire that was strong enough to destroy a corpse is not a stretch. Again it depends on how much she bled. The body would have to be dealt with as (we both know) they begin to stink after a bit. Crushing or shredding the car later when there was no massive public search going on makes some sense. Lets assume Avery cant trust any other family member except his marginally capable nephew. He has to get rid of a body so he uses a pit fire and some tires to cover the smell (something the documentary didn't mention) then waits to get rid of the car, when it is time to get rid of the car either his family is around, the equipment doesn't work or the search is already underway.
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  #78  
Old 18 January 2016, 10:21
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Originally Posted by IrishSoldier View Post
Well then I'm being misunderstood. Im not saying he CSI'ed the entire junkyard, only that he did get rid of the body, phone etc and then left the car among 100's of other cars to be destroyed later. Thinking he added a mattress or a few bed sheets to a fire that was strong enough to destroy a corpse is not a stretch. Again it depends on how much she bled.
So he wipes all of his fingerprints off the car, but leaves his blood and her blood inside and leaves it to be destroyed later? But later than the days it took to find the crime scene?
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  #79  
Old 18 January 2016, 10:23
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As Avery has been convicted perhaps the real killer theory should be developed and pushed by the defense. Some one did it, and burned the body over a period of hours on his property, not far from his trailer/house. Some have speculated that the police killed the woman and this was a frame from start to finish and I just cant see that either. When have the cops ever cared how much the taxpayer losses when they lose a wrongful death/wrongful conviction suit?
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Old 18 January 2016, 10:30
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The documentary covered the fact that the towns insurance carrier had decided they would not cover whatever was paid out of the suit because of negligence or something to that effect on the part of the PD.

Also, there were burned body parts found at three distinct locations: the burn pit, a barrel and a quarry that appeared to be a considerable distance from the trailer.
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